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THE FRONTIER LINE
Hosts Wayne Aston and David Murray explore the critical global pillars of infrastructure development and energy production, from traditional methods to future-forward advancements. The Frontier Line covers the latest industry news, energy innovations, and sustainability trends that are shaping the future. Through expert interviews with industry leaders in renewable energy, utility-scale battery storage, and waste-to-energy technologies, the podcast provides insights into the evolving landscape of energy efficiency and sustainable infrastructure. By focusing on the intersection of innovation and the politics of energy, The Frontier Line highlights transformative ideas and technologies poised to deliver cost-efficient, resilient, and sustainable solutions for global industries.
THE FRONTIER LINE
Bobby Gallagher-CEO Deployable Energy
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Meet Bobby Gallagher
SPEAKER_03Welcome back to the show, friends of the Frontier Line. Good morning, Dave. Good morning, Wayne. Great to be here. Hello, everyone. Happy to be back in the studio today. We have an awesome, awesome VIP guest with us today. And uh without further ado, we've been we've been alluding to all of these really cool people in the nuclear space that would be joining us on the show. And we've got one of those guys today, Bobby Gallagher is joining us in the studio. Bobby, welcome to the show. Hey, good day, Wayne.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good day, uh pleasure to be here. Thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_02We've been talking about this. I don't know if we actually talked about it on the air, but we've talked about it off air. And like, this is we're you know, you've done a lot of really cool things, and we're excited to talk to you.
SPEAKER_00Oh, appreciate it. Yeah, uh you'd love to get into it and uh yeah, convict the sovereign as well. Yeah, you guys have some amazing stuff going on.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for taking time out of your morning to be with us. So let's kick this off right, Bobby. We want to give our listeners a true perspective of Bobby Gallagher and and really the genius mind that you have. And I think you know, when we talk about people's you know, business histories and the biographies, it's nice to have something to point to. And if any any of the listeners have seen the movie Deep Water Horizon, you're gonna instantly know what we're referring to. And for those that don't know what that or haven't seen that movie, we're gonna let Bobby give the riveting story that he was personally involved in, because that's a movie essentially made after what Bobby was involved with out in uh a deep water oil rig. Bobby, do you want to go ahead and kick it off with that story?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, sure. Um, yeah, um, I think uh that was obviously a very dark day for for the industry, right? Uh it was the um a billion-dollar rig got sunk, 11 lives got lost, um, the largest corporate liability event in history at the time for for BP. Uh the CEO um um didn't do the best PR job uh as well. He he he got fired. Um and so yeah,
Deepwater Horizon Aftermath
SPEAKER_00in the in the aftermath of that event, yeah, there was yeah, billions of dollars um being yeah, allocated to try and fix that problem. And uh yeah, I think uh I'll at the time I was working for Diamond Offshore Drilling. And uh with my ex-military background, I knew the physics of the problem. Um, that the problem was uh was a time exposure um problem. Um you needed to close these wells very quickly when an event like that happens, um, as opposed to needing more force or or um or or so forth that uh most people were going um going down. And uh it required um yeah, it required putting explosives two miles down on the bottom of the ocean to solve to solve that problem. And uh you can imagine a yeah, a sort of 28, 29 uh Australian bloke uh yeah, coming talking about uh putting a couple of couple of you know explosive charges on the bottom of the ocean to solve um this from ever occurring again. Um it it fell pretty flat. Um yeah, they're they're just like uh yeah, you're not yeah, I'll do my best Texas accent. Yeah, you you're not from around here, boy. Yeah, um was kind of the theme. And uh That's cute.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What else do you have? Yeah. And and so um uh but like like I said, uh like I I had to I had to pound the pavement, had to hit the uh yeah, knock on the doors, and uh um I knew the technology would work and yeah, found some investors, found some friends that uh um had no idea about what I was doing, yeah, but said, all right, yeah, Bobby, we believe it here's a million bucks, yeah. Yeah, let's see see what you can uh let's see what you can do with it. And eventually I hit enough doors until I got to the uh the COO of Transocean. So that the rig owner that lost that rig, you know, that that had the 11 lives lost, finally got into his office. And um at the time, uh, you know, we had this, it was we were in a big boardroom, um, lots of people, yeah, heaps of naysayers that uh that turned me away in the room. And uh uh but within about 30 seconds of like giving the pitch, um the gentleman was uh John Sobart. He said, Oh shit, this is gonna work. And and that was it. Like it was just like uh and so yeah, we we just yeah yeah, I explained to him that it's a it's a time exposure. Oh, we needed to close these wells quickly because what was happening was you're getting basically the world's greatest sandblaster coming out of the wells. You got sand, you got expanding gas, you got oil, you got water, and if you go slowly, basically there's nothing left in your seals or nothing left um to close the wells with. So instead of taking 60 seconds, you need to do it in 60 milliseconds. Um yeah, the the analogy we we put was um it needed to be the airbag for the oil and gas industry. Um just imagine trying to like have like hydraulics for your airbag in your car, like yeah, pumping up
The Airbag Insight: Time vs Force
SPEAKER_00you already threw the windscreen. Yeah, right. Yeah, so it needed to happen like that. And so um the the rest is kind of interesting with with the Transoceans backing, Rabba Rays, you know, 15 million of venture capital, um, a small team uh basically beat out billions of dollars of investment. Yeah, yeah. Chevron had something going, Exxon had something going, yeah, everyone had something going. But uh yeah, I think uh understanding the underlying physics, the underlying problem, yeah, it's never it's never the wrong solution or the long um wrong uh answer. It's always the wrong question. Yeah, that they were solving the wrong problems. And uh and so we we thought we had the right question that we're answering. And uh and uh yeah, we we built that company up. Uh it uh we basically got all the super majors on board, excellent, Chevron, etc., as customers. Uh we got uh all the supernational oil companies. Uh it was a wild ride, but um spent a lot of time in a plane all over the world. Um COVID hit that kind of bumped us off an uh an IPO track and uh and onto an acquisition. And yeah, the the company you know it was was acquired. Um we had a we had a nice nine-figure exit, and uh yeah, we've been working on nuclear ever ever since. But that that was the that was my uh that was my uh baptism of fire in into entrepreneurship, into deep tech, into the oil field. It's extraordinary.
SPEAKER_02It's it's an amazing story. I saw there's so many questions I want to ask, Bobby. And uh because you know, uh Wayne and I have been in that entrepreneurial space for a long time. It the tenacity factor is a thing. And you know, when you're going up against people all the time saying, No, I don't understand it, I don't get it, I don't see it, I don't see the vision. How how how do you, as that what, 28-year-old, go into rooms with like legitimately with a lot of, I'm sure, doctors in in this space, physicists, uh, engineers and and such who have done who've been in these companies, how do you go, okay, do you ever have that, did you have that self-doubt that like how how do you how does a person work through that when you're I mean you're faced with like truly a problem that the entire world is looking at, right? Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And yeah, it was uh it's an interesting one. Like uh um there's a there's a level of uh stubbornness, there's a level of um of uh yeah of uh um not listening to the haters, you know, um and and whilst not being delusional about uh what you're doing, that's that's that's the hard balance. What's the what's the constructive criticism and and and what's just the uh what's just the hate out there? Um I think that's that's a hard that's a hard skill to set because yeah, we um we got told we're a joke, we got told, yeah, that uh yeah, Chevron or Shell's working on this, like how are you gonna beat you know 300 engineers and 300 million dollars like investment? Like and um yeah, there's so many historical examples of this. Like um, yeah, look at the Wright brothers, yeah, embedded flight. Um at the time, like the the Navy admirals were saying that uh yeah, within 30 years we might be able to go, you know, 300 feet off. And all they're doing is gliding off these things, right? Like they're just like, yeah, within three years we'd be able to just glide a little further, a little further, like you know, and so that was that conventional thinking. And you needed a couple of bike mechanics, you know, to to um to break the paradigm. Um and so yeah, so I think uh um there's a little bit of yeah, you if you truly understand the the question, um, yeah, you you can uh you will eventually get the people on the side. Um and we had to set all these examples and set like, hey, we'll come back to you in six months. I'm gonna do this, this, this, and then you have to go and do it. And you have to make it happen. Uh and then you build that credibility. And I mean this time around it's been a little easier just because, yeah, um uh yeah, just yeah, you're a little older, a little uh a little uh little smarter, um, a little uh um yeah, a little bit more credibility, but um but uh yeah, you need to have that belief that you're solving the
Tenacity, Doubt, and Credibility
SPEAKER_00right problem.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and and you said, I mean, you hit it I think on the head, and I think it's framed wonderfully, and that is is you figured out how to what what question to really address and how to reframe that. Was that kind of a what you what you were able to do is just to reframe how this was being told and the story that was being told and say, okay, well let's look at it this way instead.
SPEAKER_00That's wrong. Yeah, and and and what stick with what stuck was yeah, we need to make an airbag. Um, yeah, like all the other things we have, you're just making sort of better brakes, you're making better, you're making better headlights, yeah. But if you're gonna crash, yeah, um, you need an airbag. Yeah, that that adds that that adds that safety so you don't need to hit the windshield. And so, yeah, um, and there's a the yeah getting and figuring out what audience is, yeah, what message to what audience um to make sticks always hard, but uh um but yeah, that airbag to the oil and gas industry was was what uh really resonated with everyone. Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_03Bobby, I love that you use the analogy of the Wright brothers. Dave and I are huge, huge proponents of the um, you know, against all odds, the resilience of an a true entrepreneur who's got to fail fast and fail forward and make things happen. We you know, we've got an exciting modern-day example in Elon Musk. I mean, look what he's done with Tesla, look what he's done with SpaceX. I mean, the man has figured out how to land, you know, these skyscrapers into a cradle. And we have we've had NASA doing things since the 60s that have come nowhere close to this. But you know, one guy with the right ingredients and the right question brings out the right solution. And so this is this is a common denominator in entrepreneurship, and that's what really uh I think brings some of these exciting companies to the forefront, like what you've done. And it's really exciting to be working with you, knowing what you've done and knowing what you have going and and contemplating what we're gonna be doing here with you in the future, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think the bit about Elon, if I can just add, um Yes, like he he he got five from from PayPal, like he was he was in the wilderness there, yeah, yeah, and like uh um everyone looks at him as yeah, okay, he's um he's this phenomenal, you know, brilliant uh you know entrepreneur, but like the trials and tribulations that he's had to go through, like it Tesla nearly failed a couple of times and he had to double up and re-up and and and go all in. Um and um and I think that's what people you know or some people fail to realize, just how much you have to put in. And it's and it's always 110%. It's always more than you ever think you can ever um out to get to success. And uh yeah, people only just see the uh the superficial yeah rewards as opposed to the hard work that goes under it.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and the risk, right? And there's a huge amount of risk. I mean, there you're right on Elon, he you know, he had had successes and and yet he still pushed his chips all in, you know, and said, Okay, and and a lot of people would have said, Oh, I'm happy, I've made plenty of money, and I'm good. And he's like, No, no, no, I need to, you know, he had that that ultimate bigger long term of like we can do all of these different things, and I'm not stopping yet. Um, when when a lot of people would have said, No, I'm good, I'm good. And and and you that tenacity is just it's rare. It's rare.
SPEAKER_03You know, it reminds me of another analogy that Dave and I have referred to, and that is like being an entrepreneur and and facing the trials, tribulation, setbacks, and finding the will somewhere to do way more, sometimes double, triple, ten times what you expected you might have to do. It's like running a marathon, and and mentally you're barely getting to the end of the 28 miles, and then you get to the end, you're like, oh, guess what? I get to run three more marathons. You're not prepared for that, but you somehow have to dig deep and get and find resourcefulness within yourself and your your own heart to continue moving no matter what. It's like one step at a time mode, and and you get locked into it, no, whatever it takes, it's always going to be one more step. I'm I'm not stopping, you know what I mean? And that that is also a big distinction between you know the guys that end up not making it and the ones that make it really big. Um can you give us a little bit more colour on your military background? You're from Australia. Uh you love the accent. Give us a little bit more background on what you were able to do with uh was it Australian Special Forces?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I uh I helped uh I was on I was more on the engineering side, um, but uh yeah, so uh they they put me through they put me through uh college. Yeah, I got my mechanical engineering major. I was always gonna serve after 9-11. Um that was
Military Lessons for Startups
SPEAKER_00uh yeah, that's that's like uh I think anyone who's looked through that remembers me. By the way, yeah. No, not not not on Wayne, thank you as well for yours. Um and so yeah, um when I when I got in, um, yeah, we were fighting the war on terror. Um it was uh yeah, um everything was going crazy. Um yeah, Iraq, um, Afghanistan, East Timor at the time, um with the with the Australian military. And yeah, like uh I had the pleasure of of supporting um yeah, some of the countermeasures that were that were put in um for uh um to protect against IEDs um in uh in uh in Afghanistan in particular, um, that uh yeah I believe saved um lives. Um and uh yeah, it was was a good fight. I think um I I could have been in the military my whole career um if it wasn't for the fact that I had a family and uh and uh yeah my wife said to me, yeah, on my my second daughter's second birthday, hey, you've been home six months of your life. Um it's probably it's probably time to find a new new career. And uh yeah, I jumped out of the pot and into the fire, I joined the oil field. But uh but uh no. Um but but yeah, no, um absolutely loved it. Um yeah it's the camaraderie, it's the uh it's um there's not there's not a career, uh there's not a for at least a young growing yeah, individual, there's not a there's not a job that puts you under more pressure. Um like the military will put you in over your head, drown you a little, and and then wash you back up and get you reset for the next day. Yeah, like and and they just do that consistently as as a as a as a junior officer, as a junior NCO, um whatever whatever um whatever path you pursue. And to um, yeah, when you're talking about sprinting at the end of the marathon or doing another marathon, that was like one of my um uh one of the one of my sergeants used to love saying that, like, just start sprinting. Uh and yeah, we don't know when this is gonna end. Like, yeah, it was just like it was always this mentality of like just go and start sprinting until until you can't sprint no more. Like that's how we finished everyone. It was like, and it was amazing. Like, if you did that by yourself, you'd like yeah, you get to yeah, 300 yards and go, yeah, that's enough. But when you everyone was just sprinting, everyone was just sprinting until until like you didn't want to be the first guy to stop sprinting. Yeah, you know what I mean. Right. And and but that's the same mentality that that that mentality pulls through um to entrepreneurship is like you don't know where the finish line is, um, but you just got to start sprinting. And and so that's that's some of the things that yeah, I think the military brought um yeah, brought brought into my life. And uh yeah, obviously there was a lot of challenging situations, etc. But um but yeah, um, yeah, loved every bit of it. Um I'd go back in a heartbeat uh if I had the body for it.
SPEAKER_03And good fine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for sharing that, Bobby. That's fantastic.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And Dave, do you want to? I could I can just keep I can keep going. Yeah, I can rapid fire this if well, I I mean questions because I've got a hundred lined up here.
SPEAKER_02I know. I mean, there's a natural. So I mean, I mean, we could get I would love, I mean, I'd love to hear, and you know, we could jump into, I mean, and you know, obviously setting the stage for everything you've done and kind of like you had to, you know, just at that point, just to kind of your initial stuff is is is quite the quite the resume, quite the pedigree art, you know. But then what's I think really very interesting is what you're working on right now and what you've been involved with. And I'd love to hear more and I'll tell tell our audience what you know what you're doing because it's it's substantial.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank thank you, Dave. Yeah, so um, and maybe um yeah, I could take a little bit of time on on how we got to where we are. Great and how we got to the questions that we're answering. Um, you know, just following the theme at first start. And so yeah, when when when I left the kinetic crash control, um, I wanted to do something in the sub-sea space for power. Um, power was the limiting factor for for everything. Um, and it was relatively narrowly focused um because that's that's where I was. I was building stuff two miles on the bottom of the ocean, um, and I and I was really familiar with that space. Um and
Why Microreactors, Not Exotics
SPEAKER_00so I started building a team together of nuclear physicists and scientists and engineers um to start looking at a micro reactor that could supply power to to a lot of these installations, etc. Um conventional wisdom, yeah, um, yeah, how I at least how I think about innovation is understanding what the conventional wisdom is, um, but knowing that conventional wisdom gives you conventional results. Um, but um, but if you don't know what uh that is, you don't know how to figure out where the sacred cows are, where the implied assumptions are, where the artificial box that's constraining. Um and so it was an exercise with the with a team, and we you know, we've got these brilliant uh um yeah, scientists, etc. And we started building, developing a reactor over a period of 12 months. Um, and they came out with this very complicated exotic Lamborghini, essentially. It was a high-enriched uh um, it had uh this triso um clad, which is this um yeah, exotic clad. It had heat pipes, which is this like sodium cooled system, liquid sodium cooled system. And I said to the guys, okay, I could probably sell three of these things, like one on the bottom of the ocean, one on the moon, and one on Mars, right? Like you know, like giving me a bigotti. Um, and there's probably gonna be some bias at Bigattis, but uh um let's let's figure out why you think like this. Um and we sort of deconstructed um from first principles. Um and and if you look right now, that's so cliche. That that reactor, uh a Halu Christo heat pipe or or or metal cool reactor, that's that's where most of the conventional thinking is right now. Uh nearly yeah. Um and so uh yeah, about 18 months ago we started uh we started this process of understanding the question better. And uh it sort of broke down and how how I described it to the guys uh was uh I had a had an old boss um in the military, um, ex-English major. He uh he fought in the Falklands, fought in Iraq, fought like crusty, grumpy as. Um, but he had this piece of advice. He'd be like, he'd be like Gallagher. Uh I'll tell you something profound. Um wherever I go, I buy the cheapest beer. Um if I can drink it, I stay there. If not, I buy the second cheapest beer. And and apparently Australia had terrible beer because he bought like the mid-range beer. But um but uh um uh but uh I use that philosophy in in how we went uh through this process. I said, all right, what's the fuel, what's the cheapest fuel I can buy right now that I can get right now? What's the cheapest way of protecting it, clouding it? What's the what's the cheapest way of um moderating or or controlling the reaction? You need you need a moderator to slow down the neutrons. And then um what's the best way to cool this system? Yeah. And we're gonna pick these and we're gonna move off. Um if you're gonna come to me uh to change it, it's like open my dead body to change. You have to figure out how to innovate. Now, innovation is to not come up with a new material, to figure out a geometry that works. And so um and so that took a bit of time and and
Cheap Beer Method for Design
SPEAKER_00and and a bit of heartache, but um, yeah, we came up with sort of five key questions that we needed to overcome. No no high enrichment, no exotic materials, coolants, moderators, like no exotics. Yeah, I need to be able to get it and scale it to gigawatts in the next few years. I can't build the supply chain. Um it was uh it needs to be simple on on the site construction and on transportation. What kills nuclear is the fact that it takes uh 10, 15 years to build a plant. Um and we can optimize it, but but even in the 70s when we were blown and going, uh we're building five gigawatts a year with that workforce. And it took 15 years to build that workforce. Um five gigawatts isn't gonna cut it. We need to be building yeah, tens of gigawatts a year, absolutely. Um and uh site and for whatever reason our society is just struggles right now to do anything but site construction base, um, stick stick builds. And I I I got I got the pleasure to to work in the Korean shipyards, the Japanese shipyards, the uh uh the Chinese shipyards in Singapore. Um that that was like the perfect blend of stick construction and and putting products onto those ships. Um and so I got to see both supply chains, how you do stick construction, how you do how you do um how you do uh um productization of engines or whatever. And so the key question was this has to this has to be simple to install simple transport. Um and so the the other three key reactor questions that need to be solved. Um the fourth one was was sort of societal. It's um the regulations need to move from being prohibitive to uh supportive. Um and uh yeah, I can say the the the Biden administration started that process, you know, the the Trump administration's yeah, put it to the moon, you know, just hit it, hit it with a with a rocket. So so that fourth question's been solved, it's kind of out of our picture. But um those three other questions required a lot of a lot of thinking. Um and I I can say that the industry's starting to come back to to you know the conventional wisdom not gonna work. You know, you can build three, four, five, ten reactors um with hay with these exotics a year, um but you can't build a hundred thousand of these things or ten thousand of these things that we need to to be able to move the needle. And so um yeah, so that was the yeah, that was kind of the journey. But I needed to understand the conventional wisdom and then need to deconstruct it by first principles, figuring out, yeah, why do you have this sacred cow? Why do you have this implied assumption? Um, and figure out, yeah, this is the box that you guys are stuck in, and we can pull you out of that box. Um and so that was uh yeah, between cheap beer and uh and uh understanding how how uh yeah, the best in the world, yeah, kind of do it uh um in the shipyards global you know, oil field supply chain. Yeah, kind of brought it all together um in in what we're calling the Unity nuclear battery. It's a it's a one megawatt micro reactor, um runs for five years without needing to be refueled. Um it's transportable, yeah, it's like a 20-foot um 20-foot shipping container. It's transportable and yeah, we think it's gonna fundamentally change the energy complex, um, starting with the uh yeah, the Invictor Sobrain uh uh 701 project, hopefully.
SPEAKER_03We're so excited about the Unity Battery, guys. I mean, for the listeners out there who are hearing about the Unity Battery for the first time, um you know, we we've done a lot of a lot of homework and a lot of research, and we and you know, we've watched kind of how the DOE in the White House are navigating things, and we're watching all of these hopeful innovators developing different micro reactor technologies, different SMR technologies. Obviously,
Unity Nuclear Battery Unveiled
SPEAKER_03you know, we've leaned into Westinghouse for a lot of you know common sense reasons, but what you're talking about here with conventional knowledge and conventional wisdom really applies to the field of what's being developed out there. And it's it's it's not surprising to hear you referring to you know the exotics, the the exotic fuels, the Lamborghini, and classifying that as like the Bugatti of Fuels. It's like, you know, with with the Halu and Triso Fuels. Um it's so exciting recognizing what Valley Forge has going for it as kind of a proving ground for the nuclear innovators and and giving you kind of the the platform to come and not only manufacture something incredible and and and life-changing for the world, but also deploy the technology on the site and really have that be a proving ground. Um you you talked about initially designing the Unity battery for something that was stationary, but then I've also behind the scenes, and I think this is maybe conversations with Mike and you and hearing some of the background, you kind of came up with this idea that this would be ideal for use on cargo ships, which I think is also brilliant. But can you can you kind of address the differences and the nuances of a stationary you know unit versus uh something on cargo ships? And like give give the listeners a sense of the logic behind these two applications.
SPEAKER_00Sure, sure. So um, yeah, so for the uh shipping application, um it's a shipping is really an energy density problem. So uh and and maybe I'll I'll uh I'll describe it like your F-150 truck, if you were to be flat on the uh accelerator, um it might have enough fuel for maybe two hours, maybe it maybe an hour and a half, two hours. So you you know your 30-gallon tank um in your you know I've got I've got a I'm lucky to have a raptor, yeah, my 450 horsepower raptor, yeah, it will it will uh it it will it'll last about uh yeah a couple hours. Um but I want that power so I can overtake that 18-wheeler um on my way to Austin or on my way to college station or wherever I'm driving here in Texas. Um so that's about that's that's uh yeah, so conventional cars that we drive in, yeah, it's a it's a power density problem. Shipping, uh ships run at 85% throttle for 60 days, 90 days straight before needing to be reached. Um it's it's a completely different um paradigm. There's so much like five to ten percent of ships fuel um to be able to be able to do that. So um and so um the innovations and when when we're trying to decarbonize um shipping uh anything that's less uh energy dense than fuel oil or diesel basically takes up cargo space, right? Like if you need to do it out of methanol or you need to do it out of ammonia, you've got a third of your ship now that's just fuel tanks. And uh the shipping industry is so uh margin sensitive. It's it's yeah, these guys got 10% gross margin on these. Um so it's it's yeah, so if you take off 10% of their cargo holding um because you've got a different density fuel, yeah, they've lost all their margin. Um but the reverse is true. So if you can give them back 10% productivity and um yeah, eliminate the need to refuel every 60, 90 days, now they're they're 10% more corrupt. Uh you know, that you've just doubled their their uh their gross margin. On top of that, if you can get a lower yeah, if you can come in lower than the cost of fuel, fuel's about 40% of the cost, 50% of the cost of shipping. Um if you can get a lower cost, then you can really um really um yeah change the needle from from a profitability perspective then once one person does it everyone else has to to be to be um competitive you you're gonna get you're gonna get wiped out um you're just structurally uncompetitive and so
Shipping’s Energy Density Problem
SPEAKER_00so shipping and nuclear have always had this tension of yeah like it's obvious but the problem the the problem is um if i were to come to you and say hey look here's the f 150 truck but you need to buy all your diesel or all your uh all your gas 30 years in advance I'll give you a 50% discount on that gas but you buy all that in advance yeah oh yeah yeah like no no no ship owner is gonna go oh yeah here's a check and and so right um the model is like yeah we're gonna build reactors around ships no we've got to be able to build ships with reactors you know um and so and so what our system because of its compact size because its ability to um be retrofitted and displace diesel consumption or fuel oil consumption um it's a it's a hybrid approach to getting into the market getting getting the industry comfortable where you don't have to go two feet in um 100% committed yeah 30 years up front of fuel you know um getting so so you so that's that's how we think we can absolutely just crack open and and uh and get through the uh um the uh the maritime space and we think we'll be a game changer um in in that way because of the approach it's it's um you need to make it easy for the accountants to do their discount cash flow models absolutely absolutely well and and what an incredible innovation you know to imagine that you could take because we recognize that that the cargo shipping industry globally is a double digit contributor to global emissions it is one of the largest contributors to emissions with all of those diesel you know those huge diesel diesel engines and running like you say 85% 90 days straight with and multiply that by all the ships uh on the ocean that is a ton of emissions so how exciting is it to be able to look at a future where you're reducing or eliminating emissions out of that sector completely but also improving the bottom line for those shipping companies and that actually translates down the supply chain to affordability of goods for American consumers and other consumers globally.
SPEAKER_03I mean you're you're solving multiple issues with one with one correct question and one appropriate solution. Yeah yeah like uh logistics is probably five to ten percent of the cost of all our goods like everything in front of me that I'm looking at um was probably shit to me like like everything like yeah that microphone your clothes everything um yeah at 50% of the input costs is is from from logistics and so if you can move that needle and and reduce it 30% yeah that's three percent um reduction in in cost on in everything in your room right now which is yeah would be massively uh yeah you just you just increase uh uh everyone's wealth by by three percent just straight up so so that's um yeah that there's some of the definitely the big uh the big uh um benefits um we're also talking to island communities in this space um some of these um yeah so um if if you have the pleasure to go to Hawaii or or or any of these uh you know island resorts um electricity is phenomenally expensive um and uh because they have to run on diesel grids um the grid's not big enough um to to have gas um not big enough to have coal um uh wind is from an infrastructure perspective is an eyesore and and and too difficult for a lot of these communities and solar competes with aridable land and so they're stuck with diesel grids um a technology like ours can basically fundamentally remove all that uh all that cost from those communities an island like the G 8 10 of their GDP is on diesel and we think we could give them back we we can give them back four or five percent of their GDP like uh yeah yeah and make them structurally competitive like that now their electricity costs are yeah 15 20 cents a kilowatt hour instead of 50 60 cents a kilowatt hour so like this is the the profound change like uh that that that can happen with the unlocking of micoreactors but you need to do it the supply chain that can scale I appreciate you bringing that up Bobby Dave and I happen to know you know we we know quite a bit about national rates and how they vary per state I mean here in Utah we're fortunate to have relatively low you know power pricing per kilowatt we're hovering in that 14 cents a kilowatt range but we know that Hawaii is up there hovering around 50 cents a kilowatt and I imagine you know like you said Fiji Grand Cayman Bahamas they're probably even more than that depending on you know what what the specifics are there. That's extraordinary extraordinary innovation to help those communities so you got shipping you got the island communities those seem like home run applications um Dave what what do you think we had maybe maybe we drill an application at Valley Forge on a utility scale deployment.
SPEAKER_02Yeah certainly kind of in kind of where you're going i'm you know I'm sitting here and I can I have to say Bobby I I feel like you know we're we're we're getting this opportunity to interview you and years from now we're gonna go hey you know that there's the guy who act actually truly helped change the the the electrical profile of the entire planet I kind of feel like we're and I I don't mean to I'm not trying to blow smoke I'm just you are you you've asked all the right questions and you've approached this in in in a way that you know you you go back through history all the examples you know and we can go to you know modern day where we're Elon question fundamental things uh Steve Jobs we can go back to the invention of like the the well you know the DNA when they were doing CRISPR and asking and re-asking or even when you know even when Einstein questioned Newton on speed of light and said well wait a minute are we are we asking the wrong thing you've
Cutting Maritime Emissions and Costs
SPEAKER_02asked you've asked all those things and here we are where you truly are on the verge of like okay we we think we've solved this I'm just kind of curious right now like from a technology point of view do you have you gone and what you put to your team have you have you actually solved and invented new kinds of ways or or simplified ways of doing things where you're like okay we we finally we've we've we've narrowed in on this and we think we we have it or you you're you're already down the road with this yet we have it now we just need to scale where are you in the life cycle of where you know bringing this to to fruition so yeah so we we have a number of patents um that that's come out of the uh come out of the development number of trade secrets um uh we we have yeah test rigs engineering test units um that that um prove out yeah the core yeah it's it's really a a heat transfer problem that we're solving for and the next steps are um we're you know we expect to be the 12th company names in that DOE uh reactor pilot program.
SPEAKER_00Um uh we're our fuel yeah acquisition of our fuel is far simpler than uh than nearly any anyone else on that program. Um the amount of fuel that we need is um probably an order of magnitude less than everyone else in that program and uh we expect to be one of the the the front runners um to try and hit uh yeah um yeah the president's uh yeah three reactors by 4th of July now um look yeah full disclosure i yeah I don't think we're gonna be able to hit the 4th of July but we're gonna be uh we're gonna be trying to hit it as as uh as soon as possible after that um and we're doing it with a yeah with a with a known supply chain a new uh a known fuel sourcing uh um strategy you know we can go to Westinghouse we can go to GE we can go to Framatone and say hey mate um lot not a lot of others can can can say that right absolutely regarding like it's a it's a question I run into in private conversation a lot uh and and and some of it is because people aren't kind of aware of some of the innovations that have happened over the last say four decades in in in the nuclear space and how much safer it's gotten and despite seeing you know the things internationally that we've seen you know where do you feel like you're as safe if not safer than even the the current SMRs being discussed because of kind of how you solved this 100% yeah yeah it's physically impossible to melt down um the system and yeah so um the temperature cannot rise um it will reject the heat uh how we've designed the system yeah it will reject the heat quicker than you can have a temperature rise so yeah uh meltdowns and and we're not the only ones that that that have this attribute yeah um uh it's like uh trying to compare a 1960s car to to your um to your car now yeah there's ABS and there's uh there's airbags and there's like detection like yeah safety's moved on like we we figured out the neutronics like these guys were were designing reactors as slide rulers yeah we've got we've got yeah we get yeah we've got we we've got these models that can that can help get to 99 98% close and then yeah you ought to build it to get that last one one two percent yeah back that's back then in that day yeah you you got to sort of 80% and yeah you had to figure out the other 20 physically so like from a safety perspective yes we're we're inherently safe um passively cooled walk away you don't that you don't need any human intervention and um I would say to yeah to the you know to the community that uh um this has been a technology that's been suppressed you know for for for a number of reasons but we've had this for for for decades um we just need to let it let it come out and uh get uh and get deployed and uh yeah Valleyforge you know relis yeah INL yeah there's there's a number of these like we're gonna do it right we're gonna do it uh safe but there's an yeah the uh the proliferation of of micoreactors SMRs uh um in a safe manner it's gonna it's just gonna happen it's it's a foregone conclusion yeah well and and Wayne mentioned it when he was kind of throwing to me where do you see the evolution?
SPEAKER_02I mean I I don't mean to you know put this way ahead because you're still kind of in this first phase but I know you've probably thought about it is you know this daisy change or this can scale up because there's the absolutely there
Island Grids and GDP Impact
SPEAKER_02are all these industries and they're fantastic. So you've got these the shipping industry or islanded nations or any of these other use cases you know I can even think here in the US of you know maybe any of the tribal military bases military bases tribal nations where you know building infrastructure out to you know these things or there is really difficult. So I totally I mean there are so many solves there it's not even funny but where do you see you fitting in as you scale up more of that grid level or what we're talking about grid level uh kind of power production or power possibility.
SPEAKER_03So so um yeah let's let's talk about um if we can just a little bit about uh what we want to do um yeah at Valley Forge and and and with the with the projects that's okay Wayne like uh absolutely yeah yes please yeah so um yeah we want to deploy two gigawatts of power to the site that's uh that's 2001 megawatt systems yeah normally to power 200 megawatt data centers um the beauty with our system is you don't need to wait 15 10 15 years for your big gigawatt power station to come on and turn on uh all these uh data centers at the same time we can deliver 100 units a quarter and turn on uh the system every every quarter and so you can start making revenue early so from from an economics perspective you start earning quicker um from a uh availability perspective um it's similar to bits of solar like having or batteries having um the numbers really help with your availability so if any one system goes down when you have a one megawatt reactor it can be compensated like we can get 99 like we can get four nines 99.99% availability with 105 systems in the powering 100 megawatts you try and get four nines that's huge that's huge and our listeners know what the implications of that means yeah when we're serving data center offtake that is well data center just the the capital that's got required and everything yes yeah you try and do that with a 300 megawatt uh system we try and do that with a one gigawatt system yeah you're talking about needing yeah multiples of capital you need you need three four gigawatts to to be able to service one um to get to that nine to get to those four nines so it moves the needle in that availability space it it uh fundamentally moves the needle in that availability space from a community um perspective power is always sort of competed with water and uh with with water with uh with agriculture our systems are air cooled um water's yeah especially in a place like Utah or or um yeah some of these other places um even island communities um it may be difficult to get to source water um uh absolutely so like being able to just decouple power production from from water use um is a game changer um you can use it now for for agriculture or you can use it for for industrial applications and so Bobby i want to I want to stick a pin in that just because to underscore that point on an air-cooled nuclear battery array producing two gigawatts with zero water consumption because it's air cooled is extraordinary and particularly by contrast with some of our traditional i'm gonna I'm gonna pick on the IPP here in Utah 1800 megawatts of coal-fired power consuming roughly 26,000 acre feet a year of water that that fundamentally that that's grotesque number one but it fundamentally changes water availability and natural resources that that like you're saying like it impacts ag in a huge way it's a double digit impact on agriculture which is a major you know a major element of the GDP here in Utah and and many of our you know states in the Midwest. So getting getting to a zero water consump consumption situation and also zero emissions consumption or not consumption but zero emissions profile zero water con zero water consumption zero emissions I mean this is like this is almost getting into too good to be true land is how awesome this is and and and then I I think the the last point I'd make is on the is on the people on the on the human capital on the on the community development um being able to um so for our systems because they run for five years because we're going to deliver
Safety by Physics, Not Promises
SPEAKER_03over five years um the units we can have a steady construction force that builds and and and and uh completes and commissions 100 megawatts per quarter over 20 quarters yeah that's two gigawatts over five years and then at the end of that five year period those first units need to be refueled and so that same team can work and so you can have an ongoing steady um workforce for basically life you know for these communities um as opposed to deconstruction jobs where you've got tens of thousands of people coming on and then yeah and then dropping off to to uh you know to a relatively small uh um you know ongoing operations and so it helps with the human capital piece which is I think the uh you know the the dark walls we everyone talks about supply chain but the human capital piece like finding the people to actually build these things commission these things turn these things on is uh is going to be a huge constraint for for the industry like I said you know we only got to five gigawatts a year um yeah back in the back in the 70s um yeah and we need we need to do way more than that uh and so our system um is our system enables that sort of that flat that flat construction profile and operational profile to to continue and so um you can you can kind of guarantee jobs for the communities and guarantee um yeah local content for a long period of time that's huge that's a huge benefit there's one other thing you haven't mentioned but Dave and I have focused on power density as it correlates with land use and you see all these huge solar arrays proliferating it you know well uh over the last 20 years we've seen solar do what it does it's really cooling off right now with this administration but when you compare the the power density and land use of solar which is an extraordinary amount of land use for the power density versus a you know a gas plant for example it's it's like 30 times more dense and less land. So let's talk about the Unity battery and producing two gigawatts at Valley Forge specifically what is the footprint do we put this in a warehouse type application or better yet can we put this in an underground bunker that's accessible then we can even develop over the top of it like how does how what what are the advantages of the land use?
SPEAKER_02Cool yeah so so it's about uh 10 megawatts an acre is is the uh is the footprint and and most of that is just the air coolers that that sit that that sit above like uh um and so um and so yes you we we could put the uh um the reactors themselves the micro reactors themselves subterranean protected from all the elements and and any yeah any you know threat of bad actors etc and yeah it you will look like just a um uh like an air cooler container park um from yeah yeah yeah uh about 10 megawatts a an acre so yeah we need we need about 200 acres to to make two gigawatts work that's incredible that's incredible yeah okay wow wow my head is exploding of what the possibilities uh what what have you so so far um are you i and i i apologize but i i can't remember where you are in are you in are you past testing you already have these deployed are you in the early stages right now you're just you're just it concepts i can't remember where that was no we're we're in uh we're we're in that uh stage of uh building the first units to go go critical for the uh um as part of the yeah react pilot program so we're we're we're finalizing yeah talking to doe talking to you about to engage with the nrc etc uh on uh on how we walk through yeah that there's a there's a pretty well tried and true path to to uh the nrc approach um uh the doe approach with the with the new program um there's probably a little uh less clear they want to move fast um things are coming out uh uh on a daily basis there but uh like i said
Data Centers: Four Nines Availability
SPEAKER_02i think first splitting of atoms yeah yeah we we we're we're looking at uh um yeah early 27 is is the is the timelines okay um not to get to have a license or a permit from nurk or deploy uh that that would be the first that would be the first uh under a doe authorization splitting atoms under okay uh and and not to get any of us in trouble but yes uh you know speaking of conventional uh you know conventional ways of doing things and and and uh guidelines and rules and uh while i appreciate a lot on the federal level um if you had a magic wand given your deep expertise in this space what would you like to see change or what do you what are you happy that you're that is changing so that that these kinds of technologies can can get to market fast while still you know maintaining safety all the safety necessary safety protocols but understanding that that you know we're in a we're in a different time a different period and we don't have the luxury of of waiting around and being stuck in convention and perhaps the old ways of doing things cool um so I think the leadership's there um the I think uh from the top and uh yeah from all the leadership engagements I've had that the leadership is definitely there um the the processes are getting put in place uh and they're going as quick as they can there to give um you know the uh the rest of the organization understanding on how to make it move quickly um but but with anything um change management culture change in organizations is probably yeah in any management books the hardest thing to do um and and so um generally yeah it at least in a startup world you know you start fresh you know I mean like clean slate that's why they're fresh you know new cult uh entrepreneurs in new spaces uh do well is because they're they're not uh burdened by by culture um what they've done with the DOE allowing them to to um do these initial reactor licensing is like the equivalent of having a fresh start um so I think they're doing I think uh the administration's doing a great job there.
SPEAKER_00Um in terms of what needs to happen uh from the legislative from a from a uh framework perspective um the Nuclear Energy Institute uh NEI um yeah the Texas uh nuclear alliance uh they're doing some great work in in moving the state um and uh federal uh legislators I think it's called part 57 is going to be the new rules that will enable this this um sort of mass production and and deployment of of micro reactors so if I could wave a wand it would be um yeah get the culture changed in LC get the uh the DOE um process in place and have part 57 move through uh move through Congress and and the rulemaking process so yeah if we could have that then then we've got all the framework we need to to uh to run quickly and and yeah then it's technology and deployment being the long hole as opposed to regulatory I think the good news in that wish is that it feels like that's already a foregone conclusion it feels like that's so in motion our it's certainly in Utah our legislators are all on board Senator Darren Owens is and and rep Carl Albrecht have written multiple pieces of legislation supporting nuclear innovations and we see Trump and we see the feds and we see them really leaning into Nert uh to revise you know the the the standard archaic regulation like you pointed to and so it feels like that's inevitable.
SPEAKER_03And that's really great news. It's really great news we're we're coming up on the hour and we're not going to try and slow this down and stop just because of timing. I want to I want to I want to let this percolate so we get a get all the information out for the listeners here. But from a manufacturing perspective Bobby you know okay we're talking about deploying two gigawatts of uh of you know daisy chained unity battery array on site and getting to that utility scale but from a manufacturing standpoint what do you think is realistic standing up a major factory and producing mass producing these reactors what do you think the what what's your target what is deployable energy's target for how many you could produce or how many megawatts you could produce in a year so so the first facility um um first dedicated manufacturing facility we're calling the a gigawatt factory instead of a gigafactory a gigawatt factory and so that's a thousand units yeah that's a thousand units uh a year and um yeah we're we're looking at different uh sites yeah whether it be in Utah or or or Texas um to to site that uh um facility and then um and so we want that up and running um by the early uh 2030s so that's uh um that's that's the that's the plans there and then um our next system our next factory yeah we're calling it the the the gigawatt X factory and yeah we think we could get sort of automotive level yeah so 20 25 000 units a year so 20 25 gigawatts a year wow um out of out of the system um out of out of the central facility um and to give you like a a feel for
Air-Cooled Power, Zero Water Use
SPEAKER_03that like right now there's about 100 gigawatts of nuclear um fuel production yeah per year or production that supports 100 gigawatts of power per year so um even in that big broad plan uh we're only still 25% of the current um installed base um in the supply chain um and so we don't like yeah we can leverage that for for yeah a good number of years before we we need to start really investing and and obviously Westinghouse and others at GE they'll they'll invest uh when they see the when they see the demand as well um start to pick up so that gives you a feel for like um what we're thinking we're thinking automotive um yeah you yeah you get like the gearbox out of a car three thousand dollars to buy a gearbox if you were to hand cut that um and and make that as a one-off it'd probably be three hundred thousand dollars to to build on a one-off that's the sort of levels of learning you can get to when you get to that scale um it it really just comes down to the material costs and and uh and the minimal value added each do so yeah that that's that's our big vision for for production that is a that's an incredible vision start to think in those terms you start to really rack your brain about how much could be done in a better way like retiring all the coal retiring gas retiring so many you know conventional traditional power generation resources Dave what do you say we talk about space for a second let's do it we Bobby you know you you already know this but at Valley Forge you know we're we we've got this robust plan around you know accommodating our nuclear innovators and nuclear deployment but we've also got an equally robust focus on aerospace and defense and we're talking about satellite manufacturing we're talking about all kinds of things the aerospace and defense makes up 20% of Utah's GDP and according to 47G and we're hoping to help this along is to double that up to maybe 40% of Utah's GDP Bobby have you guys contemplated because it's it's remarkable to be able to think about putting these batteries on cargo ships have you thought about putting these on satellites and how much how much that could dramatically improve the efficacy of satellite deployment you know I mean they're using solar panels right now and and you can only imagine how those deteriorate in space now it was actually that was the original thesis of uh um a lot of the guys that came on board um to to deploy planet they had a they had a micro reactor for nuclear propulsion in space for for um electric nuclear propulsion in space yeah to move satellites instead of having to throw up satellites constantly you can have a little satellite that just basically is like a tug that puts it back into orbit yeah um okay to earth so so yeah we've thought about distinctly um we uh um it it's probably uh a third horizon market yeah we're yeah there's lots of there's lots of things to solve for yeah um yeah yeah here here on earth um but uh um there it is like uh one of the biggest problems right is energy uh in space yeah there's as interpreted and and nuclear will play a huge role in our in in the next you know yeah few decades um in space without a doubt and the administration announced they're gonna put uh a reactor on the moon uh etc um and so um i'll I'd be banking on it that there would be micro reactors in space powering uh um our everyday lives um and and uh so yeah um but it's probably not our first it's probably not our first uh go to market plan. No no no absolutely not but but as you position yourself in these markets you've got a foothold to naturally move into that you know that third horizon market. I mean we're dealing with you know folks uh well we just brought on a new board of advisors Rick Sanford for example and he runs a company called Complete Aerospace Solutions he's uh advisory board for Valley Forge and Invictus Sovereign and he's sharing with us some of the some of the fun you know future projections of companies in this aerospace and defense sector uh talking about industrializing space I mean we're talking about manufacturing goods in space and like moving our industrial base into space I mean this is incredible advancement power generation in space and like beaming it to earth so there's there's so many possibilities and there are more than I think I think there's more than most people really realize
Land Use and Footprint Advantages
SPEAKER_03how much of a focus is on space right now.
SPEAKER_00That's why we're asking it's it's gonna be huge and yeah we will like uh um we want to be part of the um part of the discussion um it's uh I think what what uh Elon's doing there with uh with with SpaceX with um yeah Starlink yeah star link yeah yeah like like my uh my original uh home country of Australia like yeah we spent billions of putting fiber off the cables everywhere and it was just a big waste of time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. When you when you can just be in the art from space. Yeah. We need like space has so many different uh um ways to be played. Um yeah spectrum like the whole the whole like uh like TV spectrum piece um and and yeah how we do broadcasts and communications is all going to change I think um yeah no no one watches yeah the free to wear TV via the yeah these these these spectrums that's all gonna change and I think space is going to have a big big part to play in in some of those uh aspects you know what when those frequencies become available you're gonna you're gonna be able to like really move a lot of power like a lot of bits and data and and and other things that we need in our lives to uh uh to be more efficient so yeah space are gonna be huge um and and yeah industrializing it uh is the next frontier for sure i i I have uh and I know we're kind of getting to it and you know kind of wrapping up but one thing occurred to me and and and I'm sure you've done the math on this but what you're working on actually can scale into something much bigger as you talked about traditional nuclear isn't something you build fast and even if you were to build out that infrastructure it's not something that's gonna going to really be able to scale as as big as say you could and as quick as you could.
SPEAKER_02I mean you and you can go really big really fast. So if we're talking about a hundred gigawatts are you bringing on a hundred thousand units right uh so yeah um what I would imagine you've thought about what what what impact that has to the uh sustainability and some of the some of just the emissions profile of the planet like we're scaling out on uh on a on a on a massive scale a lot faster than probably any nuclear profile can be brought online currently given all the regulations and supply chain issues and all the things that you talked about you uh you your company has an opportunity to dent and I would imagine in a very big way emissions profiles across the globe uh and I'm assuming you've probably done the math of that and worked through that and said okay this is this is what it means for us getting a hundred thousand units online this is how much we take out of the emissions that that are currently there that we're that that'll you know that that the globe is dealing with right now is that have you how how do you approach that how do you see that how do you see yourself in that whole solution chain yeah like uh the uh I think uh Wayne talked to it with um the maritime space yeah that's like 10% of global emissions um could be yeah up to 10% yeah give or take could be just related to logistics um that'd be huge um yeah uh gas coal yeah oil like they're still huge contributors to to um electrical um uh production
Timeline: Pilots and First Criticality
SPEAKER_02um but on the uh um on some of the harder to emit stuff yeah agriculture um etc we're probably yeah we're probably not uh we're not solved for that but if you can get electricity prices down you can get energy down you can you've got options for carbon capture etc you've got you've got options to to be able to uh have negative emissions in in in certain uh industries so um yeah for us um it's uh it's an important part of our mission um but um I think we're we're sort of based in a realist uh that you know lead time's the most important um yeah you talked about getting to market quickly lead time is actually what's what's the most important thing we need to solve for in this transition um and we're able to iterate faster we'll have we'll we'll we would have built a thousand reactors you know um quicker than some of these others have built you know a couple yeah where you're still learning going through your um your land learning process um so it's that iteration cycle that's that's key um and and and our lead time enables that and our size enables that um cost almost always um yeah why why people haven't moved to solar why they haven't moved to wind why they haven't moved off coal yeah in India and Indonesia and China is yeah there's a cost problem there's an availability problem there and yeah we can help alleviate and solve that um and then yeah and then yeah emissions and uh pollution and air quality etc they're they're um they're yeah they're the uh additional benefits yeah in in this in this world we're living in at the moment um that uh that uh yeah if we solve the lead time and and cost problems by a byproduct will solve the emissions problem and the uh and the air pollution and and uh and other problems so that that that's how we see it now it needs to be it needs to be solved economically first before and and the rest will come and you make people rich and then then they want clean air they want uh they want uh yeah that that's that's how societies move and I totally agree I mean that that is i mean it it's the it's the fiscal and the financial first and figuring out how to do that do that right and you know as as you well know and we know we've talked about a lot the amount of power that has to be added and just to just to accommodate the growth and the explosion of AI and then everything else is going to follow on is significant.
SPEAKER_00And when these you know these kinds of solutions especially the cost you're talking about you're we haven't really talked about cost you are you are going out of markets uh you know you're you're trying to go to market at a significantly less expensive than traditional nuclear too I mean that's not not just not just you know solving in a different way but you're also the the the fiscal side of that the financial side of that that's also been one of your solves correct 100% yeah it's um and and it's uh it's not only the um the upfront amounts um it's the uh how long it takes for you to get turned on yeah that lead time piece um helping the economics uh yeah where the user can start using that power you can start getting into um into commercial as opposed to utility that you can start getting into commercial planning yeah where you can say hey yeah delivery time's two years 18 months um that that's within commercial planning cycles when you're saying hey it's gonna take 10 years to do to to develop you're just like okay you know like uh I'll I'll be retired and yeah I'll be on my yacht or whatever you know like by the time you by the time you um figured out uh whether that's gonna come online. So that's for um yeah the question in my mind yeah is is always about lead time and then and cost and then and then and other benefits.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well you you you bought up you've brought a beautiful practicality and wisdom to a very complex problem and you know that that is the hallmark of you know genius I believe which is taking complexity and and and and and bringing it down and distilling it into something that you can wrap your arms around and solve pretty simply I mean that's always been the thing and it it it's certainly Bobby certainly seems like you and your company are are on that on that path.
SPEAKER_03So and I'll echo that what Dave's saying Dave and I are connected in the
Policy, Culture, and Part 57
SPEAKER_03brain we're we're telepathically connected here. And as a final thought I mean it's it's I want to applaud you and echo what Dave's saying here on the pragmatism of that approach because you're you haven't pigeonholed yourself into the the you know green clean group that the whole you know sustainability group that's over there doggedly beating their head against a wall to solve one thing that's emissions at the expense of everything else. You you're taking a very pragmatic approach you've created the solution and it happens to line up with the most wise states in the union and our federal administration and and for those reasons you know what what what it what it really aligns to is solving the power race solving the AI race that has international implications and those are far reaching implications and so we we're really grateful that you that you think in the terms that you think of and that it's brought you to this point. We're so excited to work with you Bobby thank you for joining us on the show today this has been an incredible interview incredible hour to spend with you today. Thank you so much absolute pleasure let's go ahead and wrap it up guys we hope you enjoyed it as much as we did join us on the next episode. Yeah until next time on the Frontier line
