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THE FRONTIER LINE
Hosts Wayne Aston and David Murray explore the critical global pillars of infrastructure development and energy production, from traditional methods to future-forward advancements. The Frontier Line covers the latest industry news, energy innovations, and sustainability trends that are shaping the future. Through expert interviews with industry leaders in renewable energy, utility-scale battery storage, and waste-to-energy technologies, the podcast provides insights into the evolving landscape of energy efficiency and sustainable infrastructure. By focusing on the intersection of innovation and the politics of energy, The Frontier Line highlights transformative ideas and technologies poised to deliver cost-efficient, resilient, and sustainable solutions for global industries.
THE FRONTIER LINE
Invictus Sovereign in Dubai, Pres. Trump in UAE Raising $2 Trillion , MBS Global, DAMAC Digital
Wayne and Dave share their transformative experience attending a US Department of Commerce certified trade mission to Dubai, revealing how it expanded their global perspective and business horizons.
• Flying Emirates Airlines provided our first glimpse into the UAE's commitment to luxury, quality, and exceptional experiences
• Dubai's skyline of endless skyscrapers makes even New York City seem modest by comparison
• The entire metropolis was built from virtually nothing in just 50 years (since 1971)
• Meeting with family offices revealed tremendous enthusiasm for investing in US energy and infrastructure projects
• The Burj Khalifa (2,700+ feet tall) offered spectacular 360° views showcasing Dubai's massive scale
• Emiratis replace "handicap" signs with "People of Determination" - a profound linguistic shift that elevates rather than diminishes
• President Trump secured over $2 trillion in deals with Middle Eastern nations shortly after our visit
• DAMAC Properties stands out as a family-run developer responsible for much of Dubai's iconic architecture
• DAMAC recently committed $20 billion to US digital infrastructure investments
• Digital infrastructure represents the new frontier for development - more capital intensive than traditional real estate
• The determination and future-focused mentality of Emiratis provides valuable lessons for American development
We hope you'll join us for our next episode as we continue exploring opportunities to bridge these worlds and create meaningful partnerships between the UAE and communities here in the US.
Welcome back to the Frontier Line friends of the show. Dave hello, how are you today?
Speaker 2:I'm good, good to see you, wayne.
Speaker 1:Hello, everyone Happy to be back on the show, episode three Feeling good and still feeling excited Breaking away All this stuff we got to talk about, so I was thinking it would be fun.
Speaker 2:We've had six months of like nope, save it.
Speaker 1:Nope, save it. We got a few million words pent up to be to be sharing with you listeners. You know I was thinking it would be fun to talk about. Uh, this for many maybe it's a once in a lifetime. I'm hoping it's a once a year opportunity that we got to have back in April and May. That we got to have back in April and May, dave and I had an opportunity to attend a US certified trade Department of Commerce certified trade mission and we got to travel to Dubai to go to that trade mission. And, holy cow, what an experience, right, dave? I mean, just give me Minus the lost luggage.
Speaker 2:it was a phenomenal experience, right, dave? I mean just minus the minus the lost luggage. It was a phenomenal experience, yeah, yeah, and even then, even then I figured it out.
Speaker 1:So there's a good story we're going to share with you guys about that lost luggage and our sizing, our respective sizing. But, man, just getting on the plane on the Emirates Airlines, you know, when we so we, you know flew out of Salt Lake into a connector and then we, you know, boarded this, this bigger, you know Emirates plane, Holy cow, what the A330 or 380, 330 or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was, it was Airbus's thing and for my for me, it was my first time getting to experience that plane- Mine too, and and I mean the size was unlike anything I've ever experienced.
Speaker 1:but the luxury and the finish is just the way it felt. It was not like writing on you know your average back and forth to Los Angeles or Dallas or something here in the U? S is a much different experience.
Speaker 2:Meals. Yeah, no, it was entirely different and was also an indication of things to come, because this is Emirates Air and that was my first, as your first time over there. What immediately struck me? They value. They value quality, absolutely. They value design. They, they value the what, what you know, we could say the finer things they value, they care about of it, and they were willing to pay for it. They're willing to put their money on it. Uh, even though maybe it might not be, you know, it may be not pencil for somebody. You don't need to spend that extra money on architecture or whatever it might be. It started on their airlines.
Speaker 1:Heavy focus on investing in the experience economy, making sure that that experience stays with you and you come away with it feeling like it was well worth the money. And I certainly did away with it feeling like it was well worth the money, and I certainly did. Um, I, I was. I was so excited as we approached dubai and you know we ended up landing pretty late in the evening so it was dark, but the entire ride and I think it was a 14 hour flight, phenomenal flight, comfortable flight. We get to dubai, we get checked in and guys, I've been to new york city only one time in my life and I was young when I went. But and, and you know, new york is a huge city and it's a non-inspiring city and you never forget new york city, never forget New York City. But Dubai whole, nother level in my mind the number of skyscrapers, the heights, every block. It was like a skyscraper on every block. I've never seen anything like it. I kept wanting to pinch myself. It was surreal driving into dubai at night we.
Speaker 2:We might have said wow once or twice yeah, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Um, the the emirati people are very, very much about pushing the envelope of architecture. Pushing the envelope of architecture, pushing the envelope of technology, very progressive culture, very forward-thinking people, and the entire time in Dubai, for me, was just a pleasure. Erwin Katzoff did a great job with the certified trade mission. He was the coordinator that we we'd liaised with and and he he's been doing these trade missions for years now and it shows, you know, he put on a wonderful event. We met some amazing family offices over there and though our introductions were brief, um, you know, we essentially had time to sit and kind of present you know what it is that Invictus Sovereign is doing.
Speaker 1:What is Valley Forge? What are we doing? What are these white boys you know from Utah doing in Utah and why does that make sense for those guys over there, recognizing the symbiotic relationships of the not only Emiratis but Saudis and neighboring nations in the Middle East and their enthusiasm for the US, their enthusiasm and appetite to be investing in U S projects, and so for us to be talking about energy and infrastructure with those guys with lots of money and wanting to deploy that capital accordingly, it was so much fun, it was not work. For me, it was just like building relationships with really great people who have really great alignment with, with everything that we're trying to do here and everything we're doing.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Uh, every conversation I think we had I had, um, I learned more. I truly, in a very short period of time, fell in love with us, with the city it's, it's a, it is really a remarkable, remarkable city, and you know, to kind of distill it down, you don't know what you don't know until you get there. And so, uh, Dubai is. You know, uh, it was explained to me by one of the Emiratis, uh, who I was speaking with that night. It's like Dubai is the city we built for the world. Abu dhabi was the city we built for ourselves yeah and, uh, we didn't.
Speaker 2:I didn't have a chance, we didn't have a chance to get, to get to abu dhabi. We were invited multiple times to go there and experience that city, but when you know their outlook on everything is the world, yeah, um, it is it. You know a couple little things. I mean, it's the only place in the entire region you could that alcohol is legal. Um, the restrictions on, you know some of the, you know, clothing restrictions. It's not as pronounced, uh, as you would find anywhere else. Um, in the mall there people were wearing for a minute. So it's, it has a very worldly feel. I have never been in an area where I've seen more people from all over the world.
Speaker 2:So it's. It has a very worldly feel. I have never been in an area where I've seen more people from all over the world. I mean, it's the most cosmopolitan city I've ever been in, and I've been in a fair amount of cities. Um, it made. I never thought I'd say this. I had made New York look small.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, it did, it did.
Speaker 2:Uh and, and no offense to Vegas, it's certainly not sophisticated. No, offense to Vegas, your hometown, but it made Vegas look like just a little like a kiddie place. I mean it. Just the magnitude there is on an entirely different level. I mean they actually have the same gentleman who did the bellagio fountain, uh, did the fountain there, and I think it's like 10 times the size. Yeah, unfortunately we didn't get to see an operation. They had that.
Speaker 2:They had that all drained, but yeah it's being there and just experiencing people, and that it's you. You feel like you're in a, you are in a grand city. Yeah, um, that has been so thought out and uh, everything has been considered there and it is. It is clean, it is safe, the food is exceptional.
Speaker 2:Interestingly, restaurants are filled at midnight yeah I mean that that that kind of caught me off guard. I'm kind of a night owl anyway, so that was nice. But you know, because it's so hot there, you know, you see, where the culture they've just kind of shifted to more of an evening thing and people are still going with families, everything else, at 11, 12 o'clock. I mean, I flew out at 2 o'clock in the morning and it reminded me of what it's like to be in New york actually, which is like the city that never sleeps in.
Speaker 2:Dubai was the same way yeah um, and that was just some of the experience stuff. I mean, there were the actual, real conversations that we had on global initiatives and the future and what's coming and what they think of the world and where you know, what they think of america yeah well, you know, I they gave.
Speaker 2:The one gentleman gave me a great compliment. He thought that he said the one thing that's always impressed me about americans is that their, their, uh, their vision to dream. He said you don't see that here. I said you know what about businesses and starting business? He's like you know the way we are here. It just it doesn't. It's different, it doesn't happen like that. He said, but in america people with an idea start a business and they just go. And he said and then people with big ideas are encouraged yeah and and and and.
Speaker 2:Big dreams come out of people out of america, and he's like it's. He's like you might not see it, but we do, because we see you from the outside. And I thought, thought that was a just a terrific sentiment, it was really nice. So and you know, for a couple of guys and a and a group of of of of partners that that think we, we, you know, we're, you know, occasionally we're, we're we're biting off more than we can chew and we're we're dreaming huge. It was nice to hear.
Speaker 1:Well, that was. That was another thing. That was really a breath of fresh air because, as big as our ambition and dream is, I felt I felt really marginalized, like, like okay, we're really not like crazy, no, it's, it's pretty small and actually really manageable. Like when you, when, when, when you put the global perspective on what it is we're doing, what it is we're doing is totally doable. It's being done elsewhere. People are thinking in terms of this scale and magnitude of what we're doing. It's just it just hasn't been done in utah or wyoming yet, but but you know so. So I really appreciate being amongst people who have that global perspective and that perspective of scale and size. It was really great.
Speaker 1:We got a couple tidbits about Dubai and our trip there, and then I want to shift our focus into who we got to meet with while we were in Dubai. But one of my favorite parts of the trip, dave and I we got to go up into the Burj Khalifa, the tallest building in the world. I we got to go up on on into the Burj Khalifa, the tallest building in the world little over 2,700 feet high, 163 stories, and man, that was. That was an incredible, incredible experience. 365 degree views, 360 degree views. Um and boy that city you views, and boy that city. You really got to see the magnitude of the city from way up there because in every direction as far as you could see. You know you mentioned Las Vegas. The fun thing about Vegas is there's the strip and all the tall buildings and hotels are on the strip and that's it. You go beyond that. In Las Vegas everything's. You know it's relegated like two and three story buildings or homes, single story not Dubai.
Speaker 1:Dubai is skyscrapers in all directions as far as you can see, yes, and then you drive 15 miles that way and there's still more.
Speaker 2:It's like it, just you can, can't, even you can't understand it. You, you cannot. Until you were standing there I mean, I've, I've watched videos, I've watched pic, I've seen pictures until you were standing there. It's hard to conceive. Yeah it. And because it is one of those experiential things that you just, you really truly do need to stand on top of the building and look out and go, wow, this is just incredible. And then what hit for me is that they launched, basically started developing Dubai in 1971.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's incredible, you know.
Speaker 2:I'll give it out to the, I'll give it out to the audience here. I was born in 1970. So the entire time so Dubai has been being built out my during my lifetime, yeah, and, and, and. So to look at, you know, just just to consider that and to think it went from nothing to where it is right now in the time of my life 50, 50 something years 50 years, 50 54 years, we'll call it.
Speaker 2:We'll call it, round it, we'll round it. Uh, yeah, it is. It's astounding, it truly is astounding, at what they've accomplished um and and and. It's not just bill. I mean you could say building for the sake of building, but it's building with intention, it is, it's building with. I mean you could say building for the sake of building, but it's building with intention it is.
Speaker 1:It's building with goal building with a sense of architecture Purpose and urgency and, yes, determination to make a mark on the world, determination to be the first of this, the biggest of that, like the determination is what it just just the city just exudes determination to make it happen that fast uh, speaking of that word, I will mention and it was one of the things that stood out to me on the trip and I it caught me off guard.
Speaker 2:I was like huh, I I took a picture of it and we were, we were in the frame. That's the night. We were in the frame. So the frame for everybody is, imagine the St Louis Arch, okay, but a giant frame, a giant golden frame that you can also go up into and you know there's a whole idea behind it, the framing of the city. So there's all kinds of stuff to it, but it's a wonderful piece of architecture in and of itself. But're up there, we're in the top, there is what we call a handicap sign, a disabled sign. On it it says people of determination. Yeah, I mean, it stopped me. I was like huh, that's such an interesting I think a much better way to frame it. I mean because it's truly. I mean anybody who knows somebody who struggles, it's really. These are people who are just absolutely determined and absolutely, you know they've got to have determination. You know they've got to have so much determination in order to just exist and that's how they frame it there and I think that that speaks to their entire culture.
Speaker 1:Yes, it speaks to the fabric of who they are the mentality, the way they see the world is just different, and I thought that was a pretty compassionate perspective. I did too. That's what hit me is like wow, the handicap sign is people. It's not handicap, that's not viewed negatively, that is people of determination. That almost puts them on a higher pedestal, which how wonderful is that, how amazing is that just from a programming perspective inside of a culture, and so many lessons that we could learn from them here in the us about how to do certain things. That was, that was a.
Speaker 2:That was a very poignant lesson to me I, I would love to see that here, because it is. It's not something. It's not somebody without something or that there was lacking something, it was somebody with an abundance of something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, and that's and that's, and that's how it was framed, and and I mean you use the word determination, because that is really evident everywhere you everywhere, you look, yeah, yeah, agreed so, truly just, you know, if you do have the good fortune to visit dubai or abu dhabi, or I would even say you know, probably in Qatar or any, I mean that that that you know, it's, it's, it's, it was an experience and, and we, we were treated with nothing but respect and high regard and, um, uh, it was just. People were incredibly kind and and, uh, I can't wait to go back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too. Me too, it's definitely on the. We're going to do that annually because you know, and the way things are happening, you know you need a good reason and I think we establish good reasons to be there often and it is around, you know, establishing meaningful relationships. I didn't know that President Donald Trump would be over there within like a week or two of when we were there. Of course, you don't know about presidential movement before it happens, so it was fun to see him in some of the same places just days after we had left. That was so cool.
Speaker 1:And what happened with all of that news coverage and media coverage of him in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and Riyadh, and and then in Dubai and Qatar? You know, and you know seeing Trump hotels being designed in Dubai, the the relationships are long standing between Trump and you know certain powers that be over in that region of the capital raising effort that came to fruition immediately immediate commitments on the spot, signing agreements, and I'm actually going to refer to an article that is currently available on the White House website and this is titled what they Are Saying, and I just want to quantify this for the listeners. So when President Trump was there, just a few weeks after we were, he locked in over $2 trillion in deals, including a $600 billion investment commitment from Saudi Arabia, $1.2 trillion economic exchange agreement with Qatar, $243.5 billion in US-Qatar commercial and defense deals and $200 billion in US-United Arab Emirates commercial deals. And if you go down and read through the article, it breaks up all of the different companies who have made commitments, and this is all of the biggest companies in the world.
Speaker 1:This is Alphabet and Google, amazon, datavault, oracle, ge, vernova. These are all companies that we're very, very knowledgeable of in the data, energy and infrastructure space. So it just shows the alignment of what's happening in the US and over in this part of the world. Lockheed Martin, palantir, l3 Harris L3 Harris has had a big, a big impact right here in Utah on the telecom contributions that they've made for the state of Utah, and the list goes on and on and on. If you have never visited the White House's website, I recommend you go check out WhiteHousegov articles 2025, just so you can get your mind around the impact of what happened with Trump's visit over there earlier this year. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, what I was going to say is what was interesting, um to that is that the first night we were there, we we had a, you know, a social couple hours with us consulate and, um, they actually referenced, you know that night, a lot of investment and they talked about the working together of the, of the of the two of the us and dubai and the uae in in doing these things and how, um, you know how important it was, and that's that was the feedback I got. I mean, basically under underscoring what got. What came out, say, 10 days later, is is that there's been so much movement there to bring investment into the US, into certain areas of the US and throughout the world, and the US consulate said again, they were underscoring there is absolute commitment from the UAE to come into the US and we got to hear that from the consul themselves that night about all the things coming and some of the stuff that I think they had alluded to that hadn't been announced, I'm sure, probably prior to President Trump's visit. I'm sure this had all been in the works, but we got to see a little bit of a sneak peek that night and got to talk to some of the, you know some of our council members and and kind of understand that relationship and how, how significant it has been, it will continue to be, and you know, they, they, they recognize the powerhouse that is the US. They get it. Yeah, I mean, you're there.
Speaker 2:It's hard to say, wow, you're, you're pretty, it's a pretty impressive city, but still, the us is the us, yeah, and the us has a lot of things and and they know that and they understand it and they want to invest in the right projects here in the us. Um and so, uh, it was, anyway, it was fun to kind of see how that we got. We got to be there just prior to that, again, not knowing really that that was going to happen, and kind of, you know, I didn't, and hearing some of the stuff going okay, this is interesting. Okay, some of the stuff maybe I'd heard about a little bit. Some are like, okay, that sounds new to me, that's kind of news. But then to see why, yeah, to your point, you know, 10 days later it was, uh, it was good to be, it was good to kind of uh, get to experience that well news before it happened, yeah it, and you know a little bit of a dig for our mainstream media.
Speaker 1:You know, flying over these, these hot spots like tehran and you know, with the Israel conflict and Iran and Kabul and past conflicts Iraq and Baghdad and Kuwait like and recognizing how close this economic, this kind of bastion of prosperity lies in proximity to those war torn regions of the world and and how our media focuses on really how fucked up it is over in the middle East, because that's all you hear about is the problems and the things, and you we are not Americans are not seeing all of this good and the significance of our relationships with these countries. We're just not. We're, for whatever reason, and I and I won't speculate. We're just not for whatever reason and I won't speculate. I know the reasons but it's just not known to the American people publicly right, and so it takes going over there and experiencing that and then what a breath of fresh air that was for me to have that expanded confidence and that expanded global perspective and to recognize we've got real allies and good people, not just here in the us but that are, that are cheering for us and wanting to support us and and and and hoping for reciprocity with us. You know to help improve. You know things they're doing doing.
Speaker 1:You know one of the one of the folks, one of the groups that we got to meet with that was a standout was a group called MBS Global and it's a one of the big family offices there. Ajmal Sharafuddin was the liaison that we got to meet with personally and discuss you know, valley Forge and Invictus Sovereign with Amazing guy and got to have follow-on meetings with him in Dubai in the days after the actual event and you know he shared so much with us about their ambitions outside of Abu Dhabi and Dubai also. And I was shocked to learn about this amazing new financial district that they're designing in the Maldives. And if you go and research this, you know there's videos. Maybe we'll figure out how to share some of the videos that they've shared with us. I mean deals have been signed with us. I mean deals have been signed, capital's in play.
Speaker 1:What's happening in the Maldives is spectacular and is so exciting to hear the story of family relationships and how that all came together over a decade, it sounds like, and to see them having big, big impacts.
Speaker 1:And to see them having big, big impacts. What was really fun about that is talking with Ajmal about how we might be able to bring certain technologies to the table or expertise or you gonna I'm not gonna speculate anything, it was just an honor that he was, he would share that and he would. He would, you know, consider us being involved and, you know, request that we provide some details and proposal on, you know, how we might help them and support them in the Maldives and I look forward to continuing and cultivating the relationship with MBS Global and that team and Ajmal personally Another standout and unfortunately we didn't have the opportunity to actually meet with these folks, but their presence in Dubai is undeniable. As we drove around Dubai and we chose to rent a car, we took our life into our own hands and maybe next time we might actually just do an Uber or a Lyft.
Speaker 2:Well, truth be told, my life was in Wayne's hands because he was driving, so you know, there's that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, that's right, and we got it real close a couple times.
Speaker 2:A couple times we were supposed to turn right, right there.
Speaker 1:Oh my God. Or the infamous road. You know bump, the speed bump when we're going. You know 55 miles an hour. That we didn't see.
Speaker 2:Hit the ceiling?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was that fun, fun driving around Dubai. The traffic's crazy, but but driving around Dubai and being in the traffic that seems like it's nonstop traffic when you're downtown in the financial district and I'll get to this company that I'm bringing, that I'm, that I'm meandering towards. But but one of the things that also really stuck out to me was sitting at a stoplight for just two or three minutes. Ferrari, lamborghini, bugatti, five Rolls Royces, the Cullinans, the Ghosts, the Wraiths I've never seen a concentration of exotic luxury cars in my life like that. And you know, you spend some time in Miami, you see some of that. You spend some time in Vegas, you see some of that.
Speaker 2:But this was like, and I and I went to Miami right after that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:That's right, and and that was an F I mean, you know that was an F1 weekend and uh, yeah, no it. It doesn't even hold a candle to Dubai.
Speaker 1:Yeah, uh, shocking is shocking to me to see that that display of you know the just the, the automotive, you know consumer base in Dubai. Yeah, anyways, one of the one of the things as we're driving around for the few days that we were there was there's two major developers, really the guys responsible for building the city of dubai, because they have dozens of skyscrapers all over the city and their company logo and name is prominently displayed on the tops of all these buildings. One of those is amar and the other one is damak, and damak properties, um, you take a deep dive into democ properties and you begin to understand the legacy. It's a. It's a family-run business, um, very, very impressive family-run business, and these guys have built over 46 000 luxury resid residences in Dubai and have been actively developing in Dubai skyscrapers and resorts and things since the beginning.
Speaker 1:But one thing that was a really fun connect the dots for me is Damak happens to be one of those companies that made a huge pledge to President Trump while he was here, and that was a $20 billion commitment. $20 billion committed to invest into us, basically digital infrastructure. That's an unprecedented commitment. And if you look at those announcements, they also stay also say that that could easily double or triple. So these guys are already contemplating, you know, spending upwards or maybe more than $60 billion in US digital infrastructure. So, judging by the properties that we got to see scattered all over you know Dubai, these guys know what the heck they're doing. You're talking about luxury residences, advanced architecture, skyscrapers, cutting edge technology in those buildings and partnerships with some of the most you know interesting companies in the world. Um, it was very, very excited to learn about Damoc Digital, damoc Properties and then learn about their commitment to President Trump in those weeks after our visit.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And they, I mean and they are. You get the impression they are. You know they've committed so much where they are, but they are in the last while they are expanding fast. I mean are, but they are in the last while they are expanding fast.
Speaker 2:The cry, I mean, and their footprint across the world, really, you know they, you know they are, you know I learned later they were the front of the shirt sponsor for chelsea fc. You know, and, and, and I don't know if you knew this. So what that means is that they're they, they're the, for they launched football soccer, uh, for us themed residential towers in Dubai, and so do you remember the facades that glow blue? Yes, so they glow blue whenever Chelsea scores. Oh, my gosh, okay, that's cool. So they just have, I mean, just from the, the, the, from the big picture all the way down to the detail. They just this, this whole life cycle of understanding luxury and pushing the envelope on these things. That's what they do. I mean they. They kicked off, uh, you know, uh, a thing called Riverside views, a wellness focused residential community featuring green spaces and lifestyle.
Speaker 2:I mean they, they've just, I mean you know their, their rentals are amazing. I mean they've just, I mean you know their rentals are amazing. I mean wherever they are, whether it's in London or wherever they are. I mean they're expanding. They've also been heavy in the tech space beyond the data center side. I mean they've been playing in the metaverse space. You know they've been. They've been, don't you know?
Speaker 2:you know designating lots of money to projects that you know, sometimes here in the US, we, you- know, we haven't seen get off the ground, but a lot of ideas, especially when we're talking about we're talking about the cryptocurrency or blockchain space that have fought through regulation, regulation, regulation, which you know we're kind of coming into.
Speaker 2:It's kind of coming into its own, but they were, they've been ahead of the curve, you know they're they're talking about a digital twin metaverse platform for vr and ar property tours. I mean, this is something I remember discussing a decade ago with some of the people here in the us in the space, leading the space, and and I can tell you right now, they've run into problems and headaches and no support and all kinds of things, and so you know a lot of things and so you know a lot of our technology that's maybe being born, or a lot of ideas that be born here are finding their way with companies like the mock who are saying no, we'll, we'll stake this. We see the value of this, we understand what this means and we're willing to see this forward and that's what they're doing across the space. Absolutely, it's very cool and you cannot get around not seeing them. In fact, we, before even really understanding who they were, we're like I wonder who that is, because it was their names are everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're like okay, well, that's a big company because they have their names on all these big, these giant skyscrapers, and then to realize who they are and what they're doing, it's impressive, it truly is.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. You know, I really loved learning about the founder, you know, billionaire Hussein Sajwani, and the fact that the entire company and its affiliates because it's a consortium of companies, now DEMAC Properties, headquartered in Dubai and United Arab Emirates is got all of these offshoots. They have the luxury hotels, they have the luxury residential, they have the retail and now this digital infrastructure. But what I really think is cool about that is he's got a daughter and two sons and they're the heads. They're the legacy of the mock. They continue to operate it and so it's.
Speaker 1:That's typically not how things get done in the US. With no family business like that into billion-dollar enterprises. You're almost never seeing a corporate structure. That's all family, the father and his children running things. So that's very impressive. That, to me, spoke to. It speaks to a lot of things. As a father, actually, you know, with seven children myself, and how much I would value being able to have my children work for me, just value, how much I would value having my children actually enjoy doing what I do and what a joy that would be, but then to have them all actually working in the business. So it's a different. It's a different world altogether when it comes to that type of corporate structure and that that really stood out to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure that that goes exactly to to who he is. I mean, and he's been doing you know, that family. He's been doing a lot. He's been from everything I've read about Sajwani, he's done everything he could to make all those connections around the world. So where he now has this worldwide network, that's just ready to I mean ready to explode. So if you haven't seen them yet, you will. I mean, they took a, they did a, they did a time square takeover. Yeah, well for their, for their 40th anniversary. I don't know if you do that they. They actually flew a demac branded blimp, uh, uh, over dubai. At the same time, the stage takeover new york times square, showcasing its flair for headline grabbing stunts.
Speaker 2:You know they're they're not afraid to get out there in the headlines. I mean, they did a, they did, they broke a guinness record for skydiving fireworks. Wow, yeah two years ago.
Speaker 2:Um, they did, and I didn't know. This is cool. I mean, this is just stuff. I mean it's, it's fun to, it is headline grabbing stuff, but it also they're not afraid to mix things up, as is, I guess, the way I look at it and they did one of the first ever 3d printed office office commercial buildings in dubai. Wow, wow, it was a fully functioning to Mac office. It was erected in just 60 days. Wow, that's really cool. Yeah, so again, they're playing the digital deed space on NFTs. They're doing all kinds of things that, just to your point, usually becomes a family affair or somebody.
Speaker 2:You've got such a tight-knit organization that you're willing to say we're going to go after this, we're going to go after this. I mean you and I know this, we know this. With an organization, you try to keep focus. Sometimes, right, you don't want to get so spread thin, but their operation from the outside appears to run so well for those choices that they're able to explore all kinds of different things. I can imagine probably one of his children has more interest in, say, cryptocurrency and, yeah, blockchain and man. That's probably why they're exploring that, because they said, fine, you go ahead and take that and run with it and go and see what you could do with that and and go and make this something for us. Yeah, I could see that that may have been how that happened. Yeah, and you don't necessarily get that in other kinds of arrangements agreed, agreed, yeah, impressive all around.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, I'm so excited that that I'm so excited to see a luxury real estate developer transitioning into the digital landscape and creating, you know, demac digital. When you know 29 years in the business and I say this all the time I'm, I I think I'm now 20 years into the development cycle of being an entrepreneur 29 years entrepreneur, roughly 19, 20 years in the development space, but it, when I think about the food chain of of land development, um, you know, building houses feels like kind of the, the most basic, uh, most mainstream thing, and then you kind of get into certain layers of commercial and you kind of you graduate up into, um, it all like following the food chain up to the top. You get up into heavy industrial and energy and building power and those are, those are by far the most sophisticated sectors of development historically. But this new digital infrastructure is right there at the top of it. It is more, more capital intensive, more, more expertise intense than almost anything I can imagine in the development space.
Speaker 1:So for them to to go from, you know, resorts and residential even even you know as cool as the skyscrapers and the luxury properties are to transition into something so capital intensive, building data centers, ai capable data centers, data centers, I mean you guys, you're talking about going from a price per square foot of you know, multiples maybe in the residential you're in the two or $3,000 a square foot for the most luxurious hotel you could possibly build or the most luxurious skyscraper you could build, and then go into price per square foot for a data center. It's multiples, multiples, greater. And that says a lot about Mr Sajwani's risk tolerance, his risk thresholds, right.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, for a company that opened, you know, uh, have has a residential wave pool where people can surf in their own community. I you know what. I think the sky's the limit, frankly.
Speaker 1:I agree I do agree. It's definitely the right move. It tells, it shows me that they're very opportunistic. They recognize they have great global perspective on the world and where it's going and they recognize that the digital infrastructure space is the new frontier right for profitability. That's where the alpha is at right now is building power and building data. That is that is what every, everyone, all of the big funds are chasing alpha and that's where it's.
Speaker 2:That's where it's being harvested that you know and we we said this on a previous episode about how much is coming into this space right now, just this year. When you're talking about a global expenditure in energy that's $3.3 trillion just in 2025, you can't do anything. You have the biggest groups, but they're there not because they think this is what people do. They're there because the opportunity is there, but it's also a hard space. But they also see the massive opportunity that this is, that this whole digital and data infrastructure and energy infrastructure is going to be for the world in the next 5, 10, 25, 30, 40 years.
Speaker 2:And it's going to take groups like the MAC to see this forward Absolutely, absolutely. And it's great to take groups like the back to to see this forward Absolutely, absolutely. And it's great that they're in the space, that they're committed, that they're in and they're saying look, we, we recognize this and we support you. We want to help you get to those goals. That's the the only way this is going to get done is you've got to have the right, you've got to have this capital, this amount of capital, especially for such capital intensive projects, to pull this off. But at the end, it's worth it.
Speaker 2:And so we're going in, we're pushing our chips in, we're saying yep, we're going in because that's a good bet.
Speaker 1:I can imagine the listeners might be asking themselves the question if they know anything about Google or Microsoft or Meta. There's really only five or six hyperscalers that are true data center hyperscalers and they are well capitalized. They have their own money, they could, they can build their own stuff. So what, how and why does a big developer like this get into that space? And for me the answer is it's easy. You don't even need to focus on hyperscalers to contemplate meeting the demands of the data center space globally, recognizing that there are thousands of businesses in the aerospace and in the everyday businesses that require pretty heavy data loads.
Speaker 1:These days manufacturing and all of that business is not developing their own data centers. And then and then. That doesn't also include the thousands of new businesses that will be born after this episode, like from from tomorrow, moving forward, companies yet to be formed, who are going to become major data consumers and seeing the writing on the wall. That's a true developer to see. It's about meeting the needs of the future, and maybe that's my final thought about Dubai and the Emiratis is that mentality of being committed to meeting the needs of the future is very self-evident.
Speaker 2:And everywhere you look, everywhere, and everyone you talk to, everyone we spoke with, reflects exactly that. I mean that that's exactly that, that is that is. It's a current that runs through the culture. Yeah, and, and they and they, really, and they, they embody it and and you, when you're standing in that and you're experiencing it, you're going okay, yeah, sky is not the limit there. Yeah, in fact actually. Yeah, sky is not the limit there. Yeah, in fact actually. I think there was a quote I saw I was from. I'd have to find it and it was about you know, nothing is we don't, we don't, we don't have impossible in our, in our language. That's right, that doesn't, that doesn't compute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was on a plaque at the, at the base.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we talk about what's possible, yes, and when you get to see that and actually stand in it, it means something. It's like oh, it is the proverbial money where your mouth is Absolutely. They've actually done this. They've done it in 50 plus years, yeah, and they're building something amazing and they're converting their entire right. They're saying we want to be an experiential economy, we want to be the tourist, if you will, mecca of the world. We want everybody to come here and experience this, and they committed to that. You know, talk about foresight right, I mean that's that, that's what you're saying.
Speaker 2:You're saying you've got to think decades ahead and say what do we want to be in 30 or 40 years, and then putting all of your capital, resources and, in their case, almost your entire culture, on a path to that.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. I'm not making any predictions, I'm just expressing my intent. Just expressing my intent. Uh, wouldn't it be wonderful to see a democ sign on one of the buildings right here in utah that that we collaborate on? It would be a dream come true, an honor to work with an mbs global. Same thing to see some of these, these emirati friends, investing in utah, and particularly rural utah. What a story that would make if we could actually bridge those worlds and for the benefit of Utahns. I'm so excited about where God guides us and the way our days are unraveling and unfolding. You know these, these last well, this year I mean so far, 2020 or 2025 is a. It's a whirlwind and I'm I'm grateful to be here. So hopefully you guys have enjoyed this. Maybe, if you're lucky, you'll join us in Dubai sometime in the future and we look forward to that. I hope you'll join us on the next episode and we'll give that a wrap.
Speaker 2:All right and well? Yes, thank you everyone. Until next time on the next episode, and we'll give that a wrap. All right and well? Yes, thank you everyone. Until next time on the frontier line.
