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THE FRONTIER LINE
Hosts Wayne Aston and David Murray explore the critical global pillars of infrastructure development and energy production, from traditional methods to future-forward advancements. The Frontier Line covers the latest industry news, energy innovations, and sustainability trends that are shaping the future. Through expert interviews with industry leaders in renewable energy, utility-scale battery storage, and waste-to-energy technologies, the podcast provides insights into the evolving landscape of energy efficiency and sustainable infrastructure. By focusing on the intersection of innovation and the politics of energy, The Frontier Line highlights transformative ideas and technologies poised to deliver cost-efficient, resilient, and sustainable solutions for global industries.
THE FRONTIER LINE
Company Spotlight -Westinghouse; Nuclear Titans
The titans who electrified America are back in a big way. From the legendary "War of Currents" where George Westinghouse and Nikola Tesla battled Thomas Edison's DC power system, to today's nuclear renaissance, Westinghouse Electric Company has remained at the beating heart of energy innovation for over 138 years.
This episode takes you on a fascinating journey through Westinghouse's storied history and current technological breakthroughs. We unpack how Tesla, after leaving Edison over a promised but unpaid bonus, partnered with Westinghouse to develop the AC power system that would ultimately power the world. Their crowning achievement came in 1895 at Niagara Falls, where they built the first large-scale AC hydroelectric station, decisively ending the AC versus DC debate.
Fast forward to today, and Westinghouse's footprint in global energy is staggering. Nearly half of the world's 430 nuclear reactors run on their technology. Their flagship AP1000 reactor operates successfully in Georgia and China, while their compact EVinci "nuclear battery" aims to power remote communities by 2026. Most exciting is their revolutionary long-duration energy storage system that can provide 11+ hours of backup power—a game-changer for grid stability and renewable integration.
Despite navigating bankruptcy in 2017, Westinghouse has emerged stronger than ever, doubling profitability under new leadership and securing major contracts worldwide as countries seek to reduce dependence on Russian gas. From Poland to Bulgaria, China to Canada, Westinghouse is spearheading what many are calling the nuclear renaissance.
What's your take on nuclear power's role in our clean energy future? Share your thoughts and join us next episode as we continue exploring the frontiers of energy innovation.
Welcome back, friends. Episode two, season two Dave, hello Wayne good to see you again so good to see you.
Speaker 1:You know, last season one of my favorite things about the show was us deciding. You know, wouldn't it be cool if we started doing these company spotlights? And you know, there was a little bit of self-interest there involved, but also a sincere desire for both of us to learn something and to create some meaningful relationships. And we were able to do that. In season one. We had some fantastic interviews and company spotlights. We got to do Gensler, who we're actively working with at Valley Forge master planning, an amazing, amazing project. We were able to do this with Schneider Electric last year, another amazing company. You and I got to travel back to Nashville to their headquarters early this year and that was fantastic.
Speaker 2:Truly a great group of people and couldn't be happier. I mean all of it and it's been fantastic and our spotlights. It allowed us to really dig into who they were and get to know them and it it, it'd been wonderful.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, schneider Electric represented one of those. That was companies we're working with that are over a hundred years old, and when you have that kind of tenure as a business, you are typically a multinational juggernaut in an industry, whatever industry you're in. And so for today's episode we're so excited about this, dave and I have been planning this one, but we've decided that we're going to give our listeners a treat and we're going to give a company spotlight on a company called Westinghouse Electric Company.
Speaker 1:You may have heard of them. Yeah, the name is synonymous with nuclear power, clean energy, groundbreaking engineering, founded over a century ago, and they've been at the heart of the energy revolution since the days of Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla. They have been in this game the entire time, and I'm so excited to unpack their rich history, their advancements, their relevance in nuclear reactors that are relevant today, like active reactors today, how they've changed the game in the nuclear space, and also things relevant to what we're doing long duration energy storage. We're gonna, we're gonna get into those details. So, dave, what writing? Where do you want to start?
Speaker 2:boy. Well, I, I think giving people, uh, you know, kind of a background of of if they don't know, it's a fascinating story and it's a story that's as America, as American, as American, it's it, I mean, it's the heart and soul of this country, because Westinghouse and Edison went at it. It was that. They called it the, they called it the war, the war of the war of currents. Yeah, uh, and, and it was the AC versus DC. No, not the band, this is AC versus, you know, alternating current versus direct current. That's right. And and and it was a big deal. And they, you know, in the end, westinghouse, you know, gave us AC current and helped build our national grid system. So they were the foundational company to building the grid system that you and I talk about every show. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's who Westinghouse. That's how Westinghouse got started. You know, george Westinghouse teamed up with a. You know somebody up with a guy you may have heard of, nikola Tesla, a kind of a famous person who George Westinghouse considered then was the father of alternating current.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing of alternating current. That's right. And here's the thing Tesla had worked for Edison and left Edison because they were doing direct current. He thought he had a better solution. Edison let him leave. He came up with AC, started working with Westinghouse. There's all kinds of literature on that and it is a fascinating I mean just that alone to read kind of how this all got going. Yeah, um, and all these personalities and these really brilliant people made this happen. And you have to understand, I guess, when you talk about westinghouse, that's that's the beginning of the westinghouse story, but it's certainly not the end of the westinghouse story absolutely so I think.
Speaker 2:I think that's a good place to start, but then I mean now and then you've got 100 years since then and they've been integral in every, I think, energy innovation in the last century.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely so, guys, just so that you have a sense of how American they really are. Headquartered in Cranberry Township, pennsylvania. Okay. Founded in 1886 by George Westinghouse. Okay, that is the inception. And, as Dave was saying here, you know battling giants like Thomas Edison, holy cow. Another major point in history was in 1957, westinghouse designed and built the world's first commercial pressurized water reactor in Shippingport, pennsylvania, and that set Westinghouse on this nuclear dominance path. Today, nearly half of the 430 nuclear reactors operating worldwide and that makes up over 37 gigawatts of nuclear capacity 370.
Speaker 2:I think, oh, 370.
Speaker 1:Well, 370,543 megawatts, yeah, 370 gigawatts rely on Westinghouse technology. So so much. So take everyone else combined, and I think Westinghouse has probably done more for nuclear advancement than than all of them probably combined.
Speaker 2:It has, you know, and but, as we've said, they're not just nuclear but they are I mean, they're a huge nuclear company. So you know they they're, you know they're beyond nuclear fuel plant maintenance automation, now long duration energy storage, which is really exciting, a really exciting space and and they've got some very exciting products and they are in the headlines as of the last few months yeah uh, and you're seeing this.
Speaker 2:Uh, they're, they're amazing. They, you know they've got 9 000 employees. Yeah, uh, they're operating in over 20 countries and right, and their mission safe, reliable, carbon free energy. Um, you know they had a setback in 2017 uh, bank. They had to navigate bankruptcy due to costly nuclear projects we've talked about. We talked about that on our last episode about how expensive this, this space, has been.
Speaker 2:But, how, you know, now you've got the us federal government stepping in in bigger ways to try and deal with that cost so that we can effectively get some other, some nuclear infrastructure set up without bankrupting companies, because it's a very difficult thing to do, and so you know. But they did that and they were. They were acquired by uh Brookfield partners in 2023, took a 51% stake and Cameco and and now they positioned it for growth, you know, in what they're calling a nuclear Renaissance, uh, and then driven by all the things going on globally, uh, from climate goals, energy security and everything else From climate goals, energy security and everything else. So it's what they're doing right now, today, and what they've done is you might not know how integral they are right now in the energy sector in the world, but they are the number one energy player, in my opinion, in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, a hundred percent agreed. I think it'd be hard to argue that. You know, what makes them so versatile in my mind, in the nuclear space specifically, before we start talking about other energy systems and storage, is that they continue to advance with the times. You know, they've got the large scale reactor, the flagship AP 1000, and and they've already and, and, and that's a Generation 3 plus pressurized water reactor. That's different than a microreactor or an SMR and I want to make a distinction for the listeners. Typically, when we talk about nuclear microreactors, those are units that are quite compact. They produce maybe upwards of 5 or 10 megawatts, and then you graduate into the smr, the small modular reactor, also comparatively compact when it comes, when you're comparing it to these large you know large scale reactors that we've seen of the 80s with these huge concrete stacks. But an smr is going to run the gambit from roughly 50 megawatts to right around 400 megawatts and beyond that. You're talking about a full scale. You know, build out of a nuclear reactor. It's not. It's not a modular arrangement and and I think one of the most astounding things about it is that the AP1000 is currently operational in the US. There are two units at Plant Volctel Georgia and those have been operating safely since inception of the AP1000. And they have units in China. They've got lots of others.
Speaker 1:We have lots of news about AP1000s getting deployed in other countries. Now the AP1000 is a 1.2 gigawatt capacity reactor, so that is a large scale plant market. Is that's a? That? That's a. That's a very mature technology, very mature on the licensing side with nurk. I think we mentioned that in the opening episode time frame to deploy an ap1000 several years ahead of anyone else deploying a, a new reactor, one of these micro reactors or an smr, because those are all still in development and still pending licensure Right. So if someone wanted to stand up a nuclear reactor, going with Westinghouse and AP 1000 seems axiomatic, that that's the thing to do. If you got to put it up in a hurry relatively and when I say in a hurry, that's within five or six years start to finish, permitting to operations.
Speaker 2:And then, well then, there's the EVINCI microreactor that they have too, which they're just north of us here in Utah and Idaho. They're set for deployment and I don't remember, I don't know, if they've deployed yet. They're deploying this year. The plan is, excuse me, I think next year, in 2026. And that is a five megawatt micro. They're calling it a nuclear battery.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But this is something that has remote applications, like military bases or communities in Alaska or any remote communities or maybe like even in the Four Corners region of Utah, where you've got different groups down there that have been trying to put power plants in and get power distribution and it's been very difficult to do that. So this is that kind of a deployment or where you could do it on a military base or what have you. But that's set to go this next year and they're going to test it up at the facility in Idaho, so they're already down the road with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the Avinci is a game changer and that's covering the small microreactors, so they cover all the bases. They've got the large reactor, they've got the microreactor and they're also actively developing the AP300 SMR that actually launched in 2023. That's a 330 megawatt unit and that would be great. When we talk about a decentralized power program nationally, you could conceivably stand up AP300s in kind of that modular format for small cities, small towns and be independent of grid if that was the objective. So lots of advancement, lots of momentum all, I think, very important and meaningful for energy security in the US.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and you and I both know that one of those security features whether it's security features, whether it's on a national scale, on a local scale and a thing that's tackling intermittency, which is a big thing in the power industry is how do you have backups? How do you solve, how do you fix that problem? How do you have a backup in case or you have to take your reactor offline for maintenance? These things happen. So what's in that space? It's a big one. It's also a big one when we're talking about solar or hydro or any renewable that's out there. One of the Achilles heels of that industry has been great when they're working, but how can we effectively store those electrons and then redistribute them when we need to at grid scale? Yeah, there haven't been a lot of solutions and again, I'm into that space. Westinghouse is is is tackling that and I'll I'll I'll cue you up, you. You should talk about what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, it's so exciting because, uh, I hope that the listeners were clear when we reiterated this often in season one, that you know Dave and I are not just podcasters trying to make a career in podcasting.
Speaker 2:I think everybody knows that.
Speaker 1:Our career might be kind of short-lived, besides podcasting, is we are developing okay, developing industrial energy projects and our flagship project here in central Utah happens to incorporate a large natural gas plant. Natural gas plant. We have been in conversations with Westinghouse and others about the excitement around our legislators paving the way legislatively to bring nuclear deployment, whether it's an SMR or a full-size reactor, whatever we can get that makes sense on our site. But solving storage has been an issue for us for several years and we have gone down the path of lithium batteries and Tesla power walls and we still really love the guys over at Taurus, the Flywheel Energy Storage. We covered them last season and still committed to working with Taurus here in Utah. They're a Utah-made technology but the difference that Westinghouse has developed in their long-duration energy storage system is very exciting. Of all.
Speaker 1:As we've studied the system, we've decided that it would be prudent for us to design and develop with Westinghouse a very large utility scale system like this that could basically bolt onto our plant or our power complex. But the amount of redundancy, the time of backup, I think is where the rubber meets the road. When we talk about lithium, we talk about flywheel, we're talking about a couple hours, guys. We're talking about like two to three hours of backup industrial park and you've got backup batteries or diesel gen sets on site at the offtake. Okay, beyond the meter. That's kind of the traditional way of thinking things here. This long-duration energy storage can provide more than 11 hours of backup at the full capacity. So just imagine we have a two gigawatt long duration energy system store that could store two gigawatts and deploy, dispatch two gigawatts for up to and I think it's way beyond the 11 hour mark, but 11 hours is way, it's way beyond the 11 hour mark.
Speaker 2:But there you know, that's, that's the bottom.
Speaker 1:The bottom is 10, 10 to 12 hours a minimum yeah, at a minimum 10 to 12 hours, and and I'm seeing I'm seeing reports that show that that it could go into the hundreds of hours of capacity. So it's it, and from a, this is a zero emission solution. This is a solution that leverages products and raw materials that are available in the United States. That's a problem, and we're comparing this to lithium battery technologies, but it's also a very cost effective technology. And though Westinghouse currently represents a 50-year lifespan with no capacity degradation, the specialists that we're dealing with on the inside are saying but my understanding here is we've methodically designed our power generation to really big factor and so, for you know AI training models, these guys are requiring five nines of reliability, 99.999% reliability.
Speaker 1:If you look at a traditional natural gas plant, like you see in every you know major jurisdiction in the United States, the average capacity factor on a gas plant like that is 60 or 65% capacity. So if you have a one gigawatt gas plant, that's the total capacity. It means it can dispatch about 60 or 65% of that and that's accommodating planned and unplanned outages and maintenance and things like that. But attaching a utility-scale long-duration energy system like this means that we can ramp up the capacity factor of that gas plant all the way to 100, all the way to 100%, thereby saving money, time, cost design for our off-takers not needing to have their own backup solutions on site, and in my mind there's so many benefits to that.
Speaker 1:One major benefit is if we could eliminate diesel backup generators. It helps with our emission problems right. We can solve with this storage that's a zero emission situation. But it also reduces cost of having to put all of these gen sets on site and have all these additional redundancy factors. So to me this Westinghouse solution is the future for utility scale power generation, and I just fire hose the listeners on with my enthusiasm about ldes systems. But I'll let you get a word in edgewise here day, because it's.
Speaker 2:So I I don't know if I need to say anything else. I mean I, but that is that, you're, you're, you hit it it's. That's how exciting this is. I mean, imagine, if you will, a battery. Just think of it, think of it as it's not a it's. It's more complex than just a big battery, but uh, they're, they're, you know they're, they're set up. But just think of a big battery. They could power the state of Utah for days.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Think about that. Or or a lot of California, you know, or a good chunk of you know, maybe Southern California for a day or two days or three days. This is where this is going, and that's how big of a deal and how impactful this kind of storage is. And then, if you again you marry it up, you say say, okay, well now, now you're running, say, a gas plant.
Speaker 2:oh, but let's say you're using a little bit of gas, you're using solar, you're using, let's say, you've got different power modalities coming into a der yard yeah right, and and then that's where you layer in ai, um, and, and you've got some artificial intelligence systems, like schneiders that are, that are that are running and optimizing your power output and your power input based upon what's available, what's not available, and so the efficiency goes way up and so you're able to do a lot more with less. And so, yeah, perhaps you know theoretically, instead of you know you've got you know what you'd have to do in the past is you'd have a, let's say, a one gig gas power plant and then you've got diesel gen sets for the backup that you need to. So you got all the costs with that and you're going to get that 60. Well, now, because you've got a battery, you could, you could charge and discharge to where maybe you can actually get a lot more out of it, because you can go back and forth. And this is where the AI management comes in and where we've seen this. Maybe, if anybody has a Nest at home or any smart thermostat, it's going to alter throughout the going to alter throughout the day to to, you know, to help you save money but also keep you comfortable, right? Not not dissimilar in, in theory, from what we're talking about here in some of the AI systems is you know you're going to produce power when it's the most efficient to produce power Maybe it's all the time because you've got that, that demand but then you're able to supplement with battery, and then and again you're able to supplement with battery, and then and again, maybe you've got a solar source, and so you, you know, during the day you're you know your story you're charging that battery up while you're running the other things and then discharging it.
Speaker 2:This is, this is what's possible with this kind of solution. There's and, and the efficiencies that can come out of this are almost countless as far as the, as far as what we're going to see, and so it's super exciting, uh, that they are. You know, not only have they experiment I mean, this has been something that works for, I think, over a decade but you know they are deploying. You know they've got a project going in Canada. We hear of another location in the country, and then, just publicly, they just announced, um, just announced a deal with Bulgaria.
Speaker 2:That's right To actually launch two of these units, promising two gigawatt hours of storage, I believe, and offsetting and they're saying that'll be a point I think I've got 0.7 or almost a million metric tons of CO2.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Just from that, almost a million metric tons. Just from that. That's right. That's right. And in 2023, the US Department of Energy selected Westinghouse to deploy a 1.2 gigawatt hour LDES system in Healy, alaska. So you know. And that one is specifically designed to support wind power.
Speaker 1:So a utility scale long duration storage system starts to really make sense, augmenting some of these renewables that everyone for the last 20 years has been so excited about but have have become maybe disillusioned or disenfranchised when we start recognizing that solar and wind do not qualify as a baseload. We look at all the Achilles heels in these renewables and if you can't qualify to be a baseload energy source or power, density is a major factor. Power density is a major factor. Adding something like this onto it that can charge in the day and then dispatch at night with that much duration capacity, that is a game changer for renewables in general and it was really exciting to learn about this.
Speaker 1:To be specific about the technology guys, this is referred to as a pumped thermal energy storage system. So they've they've designed a way to basically inject heat into it and it can store heat that can convert to back to energy. So it's really interesting when you're coupling this with data center that has gobs and gobs of waste heat. You can pump that somewhere and you can recycle that waste heat. That's same with a gas plant you have waste heat on the generation. So to be able to have an ecosystem that reuses heat of various applications manufacturing too lots of different possibilities that could produce district heat into the unit to charge it and then store as energy and redistribute it's a game changer.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And coming back to this, this is Westinghouse. This is Westinghouse who gave us AC. This is Westinghouse who, as we've said, is responsible for over half of the nuclear units in the world are running on some part or all of their components right now. I think this is one of the next evolutions of Westinghouse is that they see, and they've seen for a while, the need for this solution, and they tested it out, and this is, I believe, going to be one of those big solutions that we're going to hear more and more and more about, and it's something that, at Invictus, we're excited about to see come to market and obviously we want to participate if we can. So Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I'll speak for myself here. We're we're pretty darn determined to bring this Westinghouse technology to Utah because we recognize that Utah is now positioned legislatively to become a leader in in energy generation for the US. And if you talk to any of our legislators or Governor Cox himself, when he rolled out Operation Gigawatt last year, he was determined to put Utah in a poll position for energy generation. And that's all great. Energy generation is very important. But then the conversation shifts to transmission. Really fast. It's like, okay, all right, if we just magically waved our wand and doubled or tripled our energy generation capacity, do we have the transmission infrastructure to support that? The answer is not yet Okay, but bringing a solution like this to the table dramatically improves the modernization and hardening and expanded capacity of the grid in so many ways. So I'm really hoping that that Invictus Sovereign gets to be the pioneer in Utah for bringing this system, and I'm putting it out there right now like Babe Ruth calling left field. We're going to do it. Call it a shot.
Speaker 2:Call it a shot.
Speaker 1:That's right. Let's talk about the global presence for a minute, dave. We touched on it briefly when we opened up the episode. We did, you know, just kind of talking about Bulgaria. Talking about, you know, the fact they've got some AP-1000s in China, but from its US headquarters, westinghouse, supports 60% of the US nuclear fleet and has over 20 regional offices in the Americas alone, and they're all over Europe. And I think what's really interesting about them capitalizing on these other countries' push to reduce their reliance on Russian gas. Okay, poland has signed up for several of these AP-1000 reactors. Ukraine has signed up for nine of these reactors, bulgaria recently for two In Asia. You've got several units in China that are already operational, and there's more oh yeah, china's for uh.
Speaker 2:They're also buying growth in india, southeast asia, in canada, in canada uh new engineering hub and in kitchener. Ontario supports an ap 1000 and ap 300 projects with potential economic benefits of uh I guess they're looking looking at. They're predicting about $30 billion in economic benefit alone for Ontario from four AP-1000 reactors. So it's staggering.
Speaker 1:You know you touched on the sale of or the transaction with Brookfield and I was researching that a little bit. In 2023 and 24, I think we had one or more transactions where um interests were acquired by Brookfield of Westinghouse and then sold, and the way I think it currently sits is that Brookfield Canada, partnered with Cameco, own basically well, it's almost half and half. I think Brookfield Canada owns the majority. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:I think it's 51-49, I think I think it's. I think yeah.
Speaker 1:But that would signal why Canada is showing up so strong right now in their nuclear commitments. You know, they recognize there's a race afoot and they're doing their best to, you know, maintain their position or improve their position in that race globally.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And you know, just from a company health standpoint, we talked about them coming out of a bankruptcy. You know, their leadership has flipped, that they are getting a lot of their revenue now from stable, predictable sources like nuclear fuel maintenance plant services. They have retention rates of almost 100% with customers. Retention rates of almost 100% with customers. You know their value from what I read was around. You know seven, seven and a half $8 billion during the acquisition $8 billion acquisition right.
Speaker 2:You know, not a small acquisition by any stretch, but you know, with their recent deals and what we're seeing. You know their $ deals, uh, and what we're seeing. You know their 180 million dollar contract with it, iter for nuclear fusion. You know, 75 billion us expansion plan for 10 reactors. This is a company just on a, on a on a rocket ship trajectory, to re-establish itself as a domineering force in the world.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and for context for the listeners, the profitability of Westinghouse nearly doubled under the original Brookfield Business Partners ownership from 2018 to 2023 when they sold to the other Brookfield entity, and proceeds expected to yield six times their initial investment. So, despite the hit in 2017, repositioning, recapitalization, strong management and now it's like the stars have aligned strong, strong demand in the market for what they do absolutely well.
Speaker 2:I mean, you and I both read and you, you know, I'm sure you could talk about. Their leadership has been, at the end of the day, they've had the right, the right butts in the seats to steer this company forward and to steer it into the future. And you know, you know some incredible people running the company.
Speaker 1:Well, Patrick Fragman, the current president and CEO, really sets the tone for the company because he's really committed the company to sustainability and innovation and their focus is being net zero by 2050. But he's driven these advancements we've been talking about, like the AP300 and the long duration energy storage system. And then, of course, Dan Lippman, president of energy systems, oversees that flagship AP 1000 and the AP 300 deployments, with over 40 years in nuclear. Lippman secured the landmark AP 1000 contracts in China. Whitman secured the landmark AP-1000 contracts in China.
Speaker 2:So you know, there's a list of heavy hitters at the top of Westinghouse, well steeped in the nuclear agenda globally, absolutely, absolutely, and there you know it's. I can only imagine. I mean, we, we know dealing just where we are with, well, one federal government, one state, and then the regulatory things that come along with that. They're dealing with everyone.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So it's a complex with a technology that is not without its detractors, and so you know it's a complex landscape and they're doing a hell of a job navigating it.
Speaker 1:You know, in studying Westinghouse, another name comes up as one of the real players. Maybe we refer to him as the global hustler, but Jacques Besneno, the executive vice president of global markets, is their commercial strategist. He's also been in it for 30 years in nuclear and his sole focus is to expand Westinghouse's global reach, and I'd say he's doing a fine job of that.
Speaker 2:Hopefully someday we get to meet Jacques.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes I'm, I'm determined to make one of these happen.
Speaker 2:You know I I'm, I'm determined to make one of these happen. Um, you know I, there I I've. You know I was kind of it was it was fun, Cause I mean, you know, there there are the stories I knew about Westinghouse. There are stories I didn't know and if you'll indulge me, for I mean I've got some little fun tidbits that I think people would like enjoy. Uh, I think people will enjoy, um, hearing just to that. I think people would enjoy hearing just to kind of put a wrapper on, just kind of where they came from, where they are today. So I don't know if you did you read anything about the thing at Niagara Falls.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:So this is during the Battle of the war of the currents.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:In 1895, westinghouse, using Tesla's patents, built the first large-scale AC hydroelectric station, 10 times 5,000 HP generators, delivering 20 megawatts to Buffalo, new York, decisively ending the AC versus dc debate. Wow, that's because I think. I think edison call well, there was the, there was a death current and there was all there. You know, there are all these, there's all these things going back and forth and anyway, so that that was the, the event that said, okay, ac ac's it, wow, um, and so the original power adams power station number one there at niagara falls ran continuously until 1961. Its transformer house is now the niagara power vista museum. Wow, wow, that's a little, a little fun fact about this someday soon, yeah that's cool, and a little bit more on Tesla.
Speaker 2:Tesla joined Edison in 1884, improved his DC Dynamos and, according to his later telling, was promised $50,000 for redesigning them. No bonus was paid. As the stories go, no bonus was paid. Edison called it an American joke, ha-ha, prompting Tesla's resignation in 1885. He then waged a public campaign against AC. The current that kills is what he. That was, edison is what he said. Yeah, the current that kills staging animal. He he, okay, edison, staged animal electrocutions, whoa Okay, showing how bad he thought AC was man and but but then obviously ate ac one out. But wow, you know, I read that in my community, can you just? I mean, okay, so, so you know, a few years ago, uh, you know, yeah, 100, 140 years ago, and uh, you know, so that would. That was the marketing campaign is I'm just, we're just going to kill animals oh my gosh, that is so interesting, so but that, but they came on kind of that.
Speaker 2:There there's a lot written about that relationship because and kind of how, what it did, tesla and everything else. But uh, so in 1888, okay, following kind of the timeline here, so westinghouse licensed tesla's polyphase motor and transformer patents for $60,000 in cash and stock, plus $2.50 back then per horsepower royalty, plus $2,000 a month in consulting pay. Wow, okay, wow, tesla's system was featured at the 1893 World's Fair and Niagara Falls project funded by Westinghouse and R&D Labs. Facing financial strain in the early 1890s, westinghouse asked Tesla to relinquish his royalties. Tesla tore up his contract, sacrificing millions, millions I mean literally millions in fame and everything else to save Westinghouse and advance AC power. He so believed in AC power that he was willing to just say you know, this is where, and if you read about Tesla, he was that guy. He didn't care about the money, he gave out the fame, he cared about the technology.
Speaker 2:Wow, so, and then Westinghouse, you know, therefore credited Tesla as the father of the polyphase system, cementing their partnership in energy history, you know, basically the father of AC power. So I thought that whole story was so fascinating just to talk about. You know how these two really got together and how you know what probably seemed improbable back then led to really. I mean you look back, you know our grid, our world grid, and I, the you know everything that came after that was because these two guys figured it out, you know. They figured out how to, how to make it happen, and sacrifices were made. But a hundred years later you and I wouldn't be, I guarantee we would it the world would look different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if not for those very different so that's incredible man, thought I thought it was, thought I yeah, no, I thought it was absolutely worth sharing, um, so now, that was the one fun, that some of the fun facts that I thought everybody on our listeners would enjoy, because it's it made me it, it made me smile and go oh, that's, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I love that so again.
Speaker 2:So, listeners, it's the Westinghouse lore and it's. It's so awesome to see what they're doing now, because I think you know, if you're looking 120 years ago, they're setting themselves up again. Yeah, to have you know, as we've seen a renaissance, they're leading the renaissance again, absolutely For the listeners.
Speaker 1:You want to go read more about these specific systems, go check out the WestinghouseNuclearcom website and be amazed at what they've got on there and what they're working on. We've just scratched the surface on what Westinghouse is, but we do recognize them as the authority in the space and we feel honored to be able to uh work with these guys and and design some cutting edge stuff for Utah.
Speaker 2:So, uh, more, more to come on, more to come on that front for sure.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is not the last mention of Westinghouse this season, I can guarantee that. So hopefully you've enjoyed the episode today, friends, and we'll look forward to tuning in with you on the next episode of the Frontier Line.
Speaker 2:Until next time. See you then.
