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THE FRONTIER LINE
Hosts Wayne Aston and David Murray explore the critical global pillars of infrastructure development and energy production, from traditional methods to future-forward advancements. The Frontier Line covers the latest industry news, energy innovations, and sustainability trends that are shaping the future. Through expert interviews with industry leaders in renewable energy, utility-scale battery storage, and waste-to-energy technologies, the podcast provides insights into the evolving landscape of energy efficiency and sustainable infrastructure. By focusing on the intersection of innovation and the politics of energy, The Frontier Line highlights transformative ideas and technologies poised to deliver cost-efficient, resilient, and sustainable solutions for global industries.
THE FRONTIER LINE
Energy Revolution Unleashed, Oracle & Open Ai sign $30B Annual Contract, Meta & Constellation Nuclear Deal
The energy landscape is experiencing cataclysmic shifts driven by unprecedented AI and data center power demands, with tech giants and legislators becoming key shapers of our energy future.
• Meta signs 20-year nuclear power agreement with Constellation Energy for 1.1 gigawatts beginning in 2027
• Tech giants including Amazon, Google and Meta have collectively pledged to triple nuclear energy worldwide by 2050
• Utah positions itself as a leader in nuclear development with the announcement of the nation's second uranium enrichment facility at Camp Williams
• Modern nuclear facilities now considered so safe they can be placed near residential areas with zero US fatalities in the industry's history
• Texas deploying innovative molten salt reactor technology to purify toxic wastewater at unprecedented scale
• OpenAI signs $30 billion annual cloud contract with Oracle, leasing 4.5 gigawatts of data center power
• US utilities planning to invest over $212 billion in 2025 alone for data center power infrastructure
• AI-driven data center power needs projected to grow 30-fold by 2035 according to Deloitte forecasts
• Global energy investment set to hit record $3.3 trillion in 2025
• Utilities facing increasing pressure from legislators to modernize grids and accelerate new power generation approvals
Join us next episode as we revisit our predictions for 2025 and see how many have already come to pass in this rapidly evolving energy landscape.
Welcome back friends of the show Season two of the Frontier Line hey Dave, hey Wayne.
Speaker 2:Here we go. I'm so happy to be happy to be launching season two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is. This has been on the heels of a six month hiatus after we wrapped up a solid season one, and so much has happened in the last six months. It's like the entire world of data centers, energy and infrastructure has shifted like cataclysmic shifts, and it's pretty darn exciting. We've got a lot to talk about, my friend.
Speaker 2:We do. I was thinking last night that we should sooner rather than later revisit our predictions for 2025 and see how we're doing.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. I think that's a great. You know, mid-year like being July, we're six months in. We should definitely do that. Maybe in the next episode or two. Let's revisit, because I think most of them have already come to pass.
Speaker 2:They might have. I don't really remember specifically and I was thinking about it going, you know, to your point, things have shifted so cataclysmically in the last six months. But we were saying pretty provocative things six months ago about where a lot of this space was headed. And you and I have chuckled many times over the last six months and going, wow, lot of this space was headed. And you and I have chuckled many times in the last six months of going, wow, we talked about that last year. Yeah, we talked about that last year.
Speaker 2:Yes, we talked about that last year yeah um, not to say you know we're the big prognosticators of how this is going to go, but this is a space. This is why we like talking about the space, because it's it's fun seeing how this is developing. It's also fun commenting on it and understanding, and, you know, putting our two cents in, yeah, about what we think is going to happen and the role we hope to play well, I'll tell you that the last few words that you just said, the role we hope to play in six months radically has, has adjusted and evolved and improved.
Speaker 1:And you know, as season two rolls out here, it's going to be really fun to, uh, to let the listeners know how much you know. Invictus, sovereign and valley forge have evolved and and and our not enmeshment, but our integration into these global conversations. So so many integrations, so many, so much blending happening here, really exciting. Let's kick things off, dave, with a CNBC article. This isn't new news for those folks that are paying attention to things. This is an early June article, but when I go back and I kind of review what's gone on in the last six months, this is one of these ones that just stands out that you know deserves that mention, and that is that Meta signs, nuclear power, deal with Constellation Energy and this is fascinating, guys, because this is a signal under, and we've touched on that in season one.
Speaker 1:We touched on the frenetic energy of the hyperscalers to go and and seek out energy of all modalities, but but we started kind of seeing in october, november last year, the creeping up of, you know, palisades and let's, let's reignite three Mile Island and the nuclear thing. So this key points here. Meta has signed a 20-year agreement to buy nuclear power from Constellation Energy, beginning in 2027, tech giants going to purchase 1.1 gigawatts of power from Constellation's Clinton Clean Energy Center in Illinois, of power from Constellation's Clinton Clean Energy Center in Illinois. Now, without Meta's backing, the plant was in danger of a premature closure. So we're going to have to dig into the background on the Clinton Clean Energy Center in Illinois, because I'm not even familiar with that one. That's kind of a new nuclear resource identified here.
Speaker 1:And then next here is that tech companies, including amazon, google and meta collectively, have signed a pledge as of march this year, led by the world nuclear association, calling for nuclear energy worldwide to triple by 2050. So I can distinctly remember in the last, last fall we were saying, were saying we were shocked when DOE, you know, made certain announcements that you know we were going to need to double or triple energy capacity generally, because on a grid that took over 100 years to establish, if we were to say, ah, we'll double or triple our capacity over the next 50 years, that'd be one thing, but that was not what was said at the DOE and others were saying, hey, we need to triple capacity in the next quinquennial, like in the next five-year term ahead of us. And we all just fell out of our seats like, oh my God, okay, that's where the legacy once-in-a-lifetime opportunity comes. And then now this is even more niche. This is not all energy, this is triple nuclear energy. So that's really exciting.
Speaker 2:Very, very exciting, and I do have. We did not plan this. You think we would have had six months to plan, but we haven't planned this. We're not that good.
Speaker 2:The other headline to go along with that and this is interesting this is US utilities to invest a record over $212 billion in 2025 alone for data center power period. This does not include, obviously, independent power producers. This is like a meta Making a deal with an existing utility is going to shoulder whatever burden, but so far on record, there's over $200 billion committed in expansion just for data center power in the US. Wow, so yeah, so power plants, grid upgrades, and this is all to meet a surging data center demand.
Speaker 2:And this article and this was information out of an article from the World Economic Forum, out of an article from the World Economic Forum Investments expected to rise to $228 billion by 2027. Typical AI-focused data center consumes electricity to a hundred thousand households, some requiring up to 20 times that amount. For anybody who's listened to us when we talk about data centers, it's a staggering amount of power that I think most people you know in my conversations they don't it's hard to understand how much power this is, so understanding in terms of households is a good way to do that, and so if you say you know 100,000 households and 20 times that some of these data centers and then the future stuff we're talking about is even 10x that that's where you really start to understand the amount of power that these centers can consume. It's fascinating.
Speaker 1:As I go further into the article underscoring what you're saying here, we've recognized that Google, months ago, pledged to fund development of three new nuclear sites after teaming up with Kairos Power and their developer of small nuclear reactors, smrs. But Amazon also invested over $500 million to develop SMRs and brought a data center campus powered at the Susquehanna nuclear plant in March of 2024. At the sesquihanna nuclear plant in march of 2024. So, like we were saying last year, we started to see this, this, you know, grasping or this leaning into the nuclear solutions, but um, but this announcement here, uh, is actually the first pledge for meta entering the nuclear energy landscape. It's fascinating.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think it's worth mentioning, since everyone, I think that probably listens to us knows that we're based in Utah. We've had some big news in the last couple of months here in Utah on the nuclear front. Yeah absolutely, you got to attend a press conference.
Speaker 1:That was pretty high level. You want to touch on that? Yeah, I got to sneak into press conference. That was pretty high level. You want to touch on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got to sneak into the press conference and see the announcement and it was something and I'll defer here.
Speaker 2:I actually just quickly pulled up one of the many articles from one of the this is from the Salt Lake Tribune and kind of read a little bit about what they said.
Speaker 2:I mean, I could bullet point it for you, but they probably do a better job because a few months ago so in a nutshell they announced that they the Utah National Guard with Military Installation Development Authority, known as MITA, here in the state of Utah, and Utah Energy is subsidiary of California-based group General Matter to build a uranium enrichment facility at the site at Camp Williams, and that's huge news in not only Utah but also the US, because it will represent the second facility that can actually enrich uranium. We have one in existence right now in Illinois, and that's it. And as we dive deeper into this topic and we talk about the whole nuclear space, the US's infrastructure is woefully behind and we are reliant on China, russia, um, and you know, in places in Canada not as not concerning, but some of the others are to just get some of the fuel for our existing infrastructure and so to have another facility, um, coming online to speed this along and help help build another foundation for the next, what some are calling the nuclear renaissance.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And have it here at home in Utah is quite something so exciting and it's so exciting and Utah has done, as I do, a lot politically to move things out of the way to make sure this can happen, and they are hoping to get this online a lot faster than I would have expected. Um, they want, they want to see this thing producing in three to four years, which is really, right now, unheard of in the in the nuclear space. Usually, when you talk about a nuclear project, you're seven to ten years out at least. Yeah and so. So there are a lot of people wanting this, this, to happen and, uh, it's going to be very interesting. So it was great. It was it was great to be part of that and to be able to see that, see that, you know, be part of that press conference and be there and watch what I think is a historic announcement.
Speaker 1:Absolutely historic and and you couldn't have said it better Utah has positioned itself legislatively to be, if not, if not the leader, if not in the pole position which it feels like we are certainly in the top two or three leaders in next to market nuclear reactor technologies deployment. And you know, this actually reminds me of an interview, a three-hour interview on the Sean Ryan show that I listened to just a few weeks ago, with Scott Nolan, ceo of General Matter, talking about uranium enrichment man. I learned a lot on that interview and he was underscoring what you're saying here about there only being one enrichment facility in all of the US and how we kind of decommissioned most of our enrichment capacity, if memory serves, back in the 80s and and so right now the big concern is for nuclear reactor companies in the us to deploy. They're having to buy fuels from russia and china and elsewhere, and that's a serious problem. That's a serious problem. That's a serious problem for US national security, serious problem for the directly linked energy security landscape of the United States. Are completely sewn into the fabric of the AI race and whoever's controlling, dominating the AI race really has a world advantage over everyone else on these national security matters. If you guys haven't listened to it. Go check out the Scott Nolan interview because you want to learn about some nuclear and learn about some nuclear and learn about enrichment. It was a very interesting one.
Speaker 1:But, dave, when we talk about Utah and our legislators, I'm so proud of the entire and I'm going to just say bipartisan unification of our Utah legislative body and there's there's a legislative caucus in there. That's really really kind of niche focused on energy and infrastructure. But our legislative body and governor Cox I have to take my hat off and I have to give them credit for several years of concerted effort with a vision and a clarity on the path to make law and make executive orders and legislative enhancements that dovetail nicely with the current federal mandates, executive orders and new laws, new bills. They seamlessly line up all supporting not only nuclear expansion and deploying nuclear power, but the United States becoming a superpower in all things nuclear, nuclear enrichment of fuels, fabrication of fuels, recycling of fuels and disposition and then the manufacturing of components related to nuclear production. And that's a vast, vast, vast sector right there. So so much happening right now and so historic and you're not wrong about the timelines Like when we consider NERC, the Nuclear Energy Regulation Commission, which is the federal bureaucracy that has historically kind of mandated these regulatory permitting processes and created an environment where it could take 10 years plus to get something licensed or permitted.
Speaker 1:These new executive orders, these new legislative enhancements, are directly focused on reducing these regulatory kind of hurdles and streamlining these permitting and licensing processes on a new reactor that that has yet to be proven or licensed. We're still looking at a seven or eight year from today to deployment time frame, according to the professionals in the space we're dealing with. However, there are certain reactors, like the Westinghouse AP1000, which is a pressurized water reactor that we already have one operating in Georgia and that is a licensed technology. It's very expensive to build something like that, but it's 1.2 gigawatt capacity unit and timeline to actually deploy something like that could be less than five years, based on the fact that it already has all the requisite NERC licensing and permitting it's just you know who?
Speaker 1:who do we have? You know who? What developers are there in the U S that that are crazy enough to try and go and stand up a new AP1000?
Speaker 2:I know one, might know one.
Speaker 1:Pretty exciting stuff, man.
Speaker 2:It is, and we will get into Westinghouse to talk a little bit about Westinghouse. What they're doing, I know in a later episode, but you know it's interesting. You know Westinghouse went essentially bankrupt in 2017, trying to pursue this because nuclear is so, so formably expensive. It's just, and you know, tying it back to the foresight. It's taken the last few years here in Utah, with Governor Cox, the legislature of understanding like. Now is the time to actually start engaging in some of this, some of the, the advancements that are happening in space, the reality of the world, all of those things. Taking all those things into consideration, we see Westinghouse basically say, yeah, it's too expensive. What, the one thing that's changed everything for everyone really are are data centers, because data centers, the, the, the economics can work to support nuclear.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And, and, and, and, and and so. But you've got to marry that up also with financing and funding from, probably, the federal government speeding up these things so that they're not so that you don't have a developer or you don't have a giant company saying, you know, we'd like to do this, or even a utility, frankly, we'd like to do this. But we're going to, we're going to go in between one hundred and three hundred million dollars and we might get told, no, yeah, that's a lot of money Absolutely. And so that that had to break free. And I think you know, you see, you see a state like Utah saying, you know, sensing that that was eventually going. You know, the, the, the, enough got in the works to where they started to see the momentum shift, yeah, and like we've got how do how? Okay, great that it's starting to starting to unthaw federally. Yep, they're. How do how? Ok, great that it's starting to starting to unthaw federally? Yeah, they're starting to get it. Yeah, you know, and this really did it. It started, you know, it's definitely. I mean, there were, there were, there were orders in the latter part of the Biden administration. Now in the Trump administration with executive orders, there's a there's a definite speeding up. And I think they sensed all of that happening. They they got OK, where, where can we jump into this and solve this? In Utah. And they listened to experts around them and those were those were good experts saying this is where we can. You know, utah can compete. And so to see them, on this level, come in and say, here, we're going to, we're going to support this. It's just a first step, but it's a huge step and that's just all part of this bigger problem and you really have to take, take, take your hats off to them.
Speaker 2:And utah has a very mixed history with nuclear. Yeah, in utah, I mean we, we know this. I mean, right, utah is the home of the downwinders. I mean, if, even if you're, you're, you're listening and you're not in utah, you've probably heard of the downwinders. Uh, this is, this has to do with nuclear testing. Uh, back in the 40s and the you know, so we have a love. Hey, I mean, maybe it goes back governors, the mx missile system and and so there's a lot of skepticism. But I'm sensing I don't know if you're sensing the same thing. So far, utah seems to be at in general, like, okay, we, we all understand the science. The technology is matured. It's time to do this. It makes sense.
Speaker 2:We'll see how the nimbyism happens, it's all good until it's in my backyard and we'll see how that works, but I'm sensing a shift. I'm sensing a shift and I think that's reflective of the entire country, frankly of saying, okay, all things being said, we probably should have engaged nuclear on a bigger way 30 years ago, 40 years ago. Yes, yes, it was problematic. Undoubtedly you know these big.
Speaker 2:When it went bad, it went way bad yeah but the the newer technology, the newer formats, the smaller formats, all of it. Yes, we still have deal with, uh, we still have to deal with spent fuel and there's some novel things coming down the pipe on how to deal with spent fuel. We've we, we, we, you know, you and I were a part of seeing one company dealing with that back east, so we got to listen to them talk about how they're dealing with things. I've seen other things on news wires that I think there are and there's enough momentum out there that's going to get saw, everything else. I think there's there's a willingness to say, okay, it's time to jump back in, and we said this last year in season one. Nuclear is a viable, really good solution. Does it have some cons? Yes, it does. But is it the cleanest, best baseload Eventually, once you can get past costs? Yeah, probably, it probably is.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and I think we're on that track right now.
Speaker 1:Well, imagine if Ford was building a car that required fuel that we had to buy from Russia. Yeah, I mean, you would never sell those cars. You know what I'm saying? It comes down to access to fuels and cost-effective fuels.
Speaker 2:Well, and in a way, you bring up a good point. It's kind of sort of what's happening with lithium.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely Right that is definitely impacting the growth of the lithium battery and I think it's going to stunt the growth permanently because of access.
Speaker 2:It wasn't an issue, but it's becoming an issue and it's becoming more of an issue. Now you see the US, both from a country, but you'll see companies saying, well, where can we source? Not China, because China has most of the lithium sources. And so you see a lot of movement now to say we can't just cede that to another country and call it good, we've got to. You know, can we develop other sources that are more under our control? And you see that in the lithium space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, we've had a unique opportunity to participate in a few really, really special meetings up at the Capitol here in Utah, just in the last few months, one of those, you know.
Speaker 1:We just got to listen in to the Public Utilities Energy and Technology Interim Committee that Senator Darren Owens chairs, and you know the one that I'm recalling here, about two months ago I think it was Senator Carl Albrecht, who is one of the energy infrastructure kind of pioneers in Utah. He shared a story about how his dad was involved in the uranium mining and enrichment and I think he was talking about what we had going on in Moab at the potash, you know in the 80s, and and how his he. He remembered his father making a prediction when they shut it all down and his father said, mark, my words, nuclear is not gone forever, it's. It's so good it's going to come back some point in the future.
Speaker 1:Here we are Fast forward, you know, almost 50 years 50 years and it is screaming back onto the forefront of the energy conversation. That was fun to hear Senator Albrecht's story. But then we also got to attend another meeting in person at the Capitol and it it was a. It involved a conversation with Ed McGinnis and Curio, which is a company I think you were just nodding to back east who is pioneering the nuclear material, the fuels recycling technologies, which was very exciting.
Speaker 1:But, Dave, one thing that's coming away, a big takeaway that I'm having in in, in being able to observe and participate in these conversations, is and then looking at Camp Williams as the 500-acre site for Utah's uranium enrichment, here's my takeaway it's got to be way safer than everyone thinks it is, Because I imagined that uranium enrichment or fuels recycling would be handled out in Skull Valley, way out in the desert, way out where you're not going to have radiation and all the things.
Speaker 1:So this is my programming personally of how I perceive the danger of nuclear fuels. And then, when you consider this stuff being trucked on I-15 in commercial trucks but for this to get approved, and barreling down the road, so to speak, on the permitting to have the second uranium enrichment site at Camp Williams in the middle of, within less than a mile of residential development. This is like the Camp Williams site is surrounded by Bluffdale, Harriman, Saratoga Springs, Eagle Mountain. Surrounded by Bluffdale, Harriman, Saratoga Springs, Eagle Mountain, I mean, and then the new point of the mountain project that's happening there in Draper. It basically surrounds, you know, Camp Williams, where I trained when I was in the Guard. So it's quite shocking how that site selection has happened. But it gives me a strong sense of certainty and confidence that what's happening in this new age, this nuclear 2.0 age that we're entering, is much better, much safer, much more predictable than anything we've ever experienced. So that's really good news.
Speaker 2:Well, and I will tell you, that exact question was asked in the press conference to Drew DeWalt. He is the co-founder of Utah Energy. This is the group doing this. They said well, what's the safety to the surrounding community? He said, frankly, there's really no risk. There's very, very minimal risk.
Speaker 2:The only risk really is to our employees, which would be whether we're in a facility near, you know, near the Wasatch front, or we're out in the West desert somewhere, it's always to the employees and he's like it's gotten so safe.
Speaker 2:He's like, you know, the thing of it is this, this these materials already get trucked all around the country when they come in, because we do have existing plants where they come into, and so it's, it's already moving across the us and and the the nature of what it is now, and how they, how it, how it advanced in his mind. He said it's, it's, it's as safe as transferring, you know, transferring anything down the highway. I'm sure there are some people who disagree with that, but you, to your point, you get a sense he's not going to say that and unless he really does feel confident, because it it's too much, there's too much at risk, uh, to say to make those bold statements, um, and it's, you know again, the, the science is there. The science in terms of its safety? Yes, we, we have big things to say it's not safe, but we also also have what? Half of our fleet running on nuclear power.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe they've had an incident that they haven't reported, but I haven't ever seen anything reported. And so we've got that running with thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of servicemen and women working in close proximity stuff with no, you know no incidents that have made headlines, and so you don't have that safety for that long. Um, if you have something that's that's, that's that dangerous, um, you know it requires.
Speaker 2:It requires all the things, but they've. Since all of these bad things have happened, they put so many safety protocols in and they developed new methodologies for how these things actually work to where they are. You know you've got. You have designs that have if you will not kill switches, but you had that they actually take care of themselves if they have a failure, so that it doesn't do what we saw at Three Mile Island or Chernobyl or even Fukushima, although that was a little bit different.
Speaker 1:Well, the interesting thing too, though, when you bring that up. Yes, there was a failure at Three Mile Island, but I think it was in the Scott Nolan interview and I didn't realize this. But despite that, there's never been a fatality in a nuclear incident in the United States or in North America. So that's pretty hard to argue with. Zero fatalities in the history, the totality of nuclear history. I mean, come on, you know, you've got to look at that. You've got to say why are we so nervous about this? We have stack up all the lists of fatalities, of other plants, everything else Exploding, every chemical on Earth, every airline, every car, right, I mean fatalities everywhere. Zero fatalities with a nuclear plant meltdown or mishap. So interesting stuff, interesting stuff, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:There was another one I was mentioning to you that is kind of related to all this and this is, uh, it's, it's, it's what they're doing with a molten salt reactor. And so there's, you know, we, we, we've heard of molten salt stuff. We know the project that's going on up in Wyoming, uh, trying to bring these reactors online. Uh, I'll, I'm just going to read this, cause it's a very interesting part of this. This came out of Energy Reporters. This reactor will change, quote, quote. This reactor will change America forever. End. Quote.
Speaker 2:Scientists hail US states. This would be Texas radical molten salt machine transforming toxic wastewater into pure, clean water at unprecedented scale, wow, wow. So we know that to take, say, to desalinate water, which, if anybody out there, if you hear taking salt, can we use, could we use seawater to create drinking water, all those things. It takes an amazing amount of energy to do that. Well, nuclear, done in this way, can change the game, and that's what there. That's what has happened. So it says in a groundbreaking initiative, poised to transform the landscape of energy and water management, texas is set to deploy the nation's first liquid fueled molten salt reactor to purify wastewater. Wow, promising significant advancements in sustainability and resource innovation.
Speaker 2:The development of the Natural Resources MSR-1, a liquid-fueled molten salt reactor, marks a significant milestone in energy and water management. Licensed by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, this project is set to revolutionize how Texas addresses its water and energy challenges. By integrating molten salt reactor technology with water desalination systems, the initiative aims to purify produced water for beneficial use, offering a sustainable solution to the state's pressing issues. This collaboration between universities and private firms not only promises to enhance energy security, but also positions Texas as a leader in clean energy. Innovation Something not a headline necessarily. You would necessarily ascribe to Texas. Yeah, yeah, innovation. Something not a headline necessarily you would necessarily ascribe to texas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah but one.
Speaker 2:But but you know, uh, and you know they would say that's fine, uh, but that that's nonetheless. That's what's happening down there. Um, you've got private public collaboration with two you know, prominent universities, uh, and this is exciting stuff and this, this, this is, these are game changer kinds of things. And when you, when you read, when scientists say this is a big deal, when they say wow, when they you know scientists when they get the wow factor, that's something to pay attention to and they every quote I read was the wow factor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I love that. And you know, texas happens to be the center of a lot of conversation we're focused on, and I appreciate you bringing that up, because the next article I had was out of AI business and the headline here. This is just July 7th, this is just a few days ago OpenAI and Oracle sign a $30 billion cloud deal to fuel AI project. Now, anyone following the Stargate project understands how this might be related, but here's the eye-opening thing about this is that this is not a $30 billion build-out. This is a $30 billion per year cloud computing contract okay, leasing approximately 4.5 gigawatts of data center power to support its expanding AI workloads. Okay, that is unprecedented $30 billion annually. This deal is said to be one of the largest cloud computing contracts in history. Comes as part of OpenAI's Project Stargate initiative aimed at scaling AI data center infrastructure across the US. And the reason why Texas pops up in this is because you know Abilene, texas is, is home to a big part of that, I think. Last I read here. I think it mentioned in this article that they are planning one point two gigawatts at the Stargate facility in Abilene, 1.2 gigawatts at the Stargate facility in Abilene. So I'm not sure if Abilene, is it your understanding? It is my understanding correct me if I'm wrong that Abilene is set to host over five gigawatts of generation on site in Abilene. So we're looking at Abilene and the Stargate project as setting a new incredible precedence and where you know two, three years ago, five gigawatts I mean no one's talking about you know five gigawatts, five and a half gigawatts, that's, that's astronomical amount of power. You're not talking about that two or three years ago. Now, fast fast forward into July 2025. That is a mainstream mentality. Five gigawatts, I'm hearing six. I'm hearing about eight gigawatt projects. You know Gensler shared with us some details because you know they're designing our data center facilities and master planning. Our Valley Forge project, shared with us some details from our friendly Canadians and a $70 billion project that Kevin O'Leary has unveiled in Wonderful Valley and Gensler has been selected as the architect to design those buildings. So that was pretty darn exciting.
Speaker 1:But the numbers just keep going up and the egos attached. You know, and I like Kevin O'Leary. I think he's, I think he's a funny guy. I don't know if I'd be too excited to be on the business side of things with him because he's pretty darn shrewd, but but he's fun to listen to he's. He's pretty spot on with his global views on's fun to listen to. He's. He's pretty spot on with his global views on things from what I'm paying attention to, anyways, and committing 70 billion dollar, a 70 billion dollar project, I mean, you know, dave, it's. It's just dizzying how fast the numbers are going up and I'm just told there's.
Speaker 2:So I've got more for you I mean, I, I keep throwing them out and we keep throwing. But how many times privately, last year, uh, in this last year, were we, I'm gonna say, laughed at? I think people were like you guys are up in the night if you're thinking, you know, if you're talking about a gigawatt and a half, two gigawatts, oh yeah, half gigawatts, like that, that that's, that's insane. Oh yeah, and like, no, it's really not in fact, actually it's, it's conservative and yeah, and, and you know we're trying to temper you know what, on what we're we're planning.
Speaker 2:But now you see this again, six months later, and the numbers have tripled. And it's not a surprise to us. But you know personally, and you know, in all, in a lot of our conversations, there's a lot of skepticism. But that's being. I mean, that's okay, but skeptics are great, they're, we're always going to have skeptics, but it's it's. We're seeing the, the, we're seeing the, the real world take place, take shape right now and the real world saying, yeah, that's neat, but we, we're on a trajectory that's that's to the moon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I saw I I've mentioned this one to you. This is from deloitte, okay, so this is just recently, so they are forecasting us ai driven, data center power needs could grow by you want to give me a guess on how much? By 2035?.
Speaker 1:Within the next 10 years from today, how much data center power needs could grow by yeah, 10x, 30-fold.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, 30x Holy cow that that that is, uh, that high. I mean, as this article, you know, points out, and there's this Deloitte, uh, as they said, is that it, it, just it spotlights not only the trajectory but also the need and underscores the need for grid modernization, absolutely, and storage solutions and all kinds of things that we're talking about. And, you know, not unrelated to that, you see different states not just Utah to a certain degree, but different states starting to push back against utilities and saying you've got to come up with better plans. Pjm, america's largest power grid, right Under pressure as AI workloads this is another headline. This is Reuters. Data centers outpace new generation Electricity bills in parts of PJM territory may rise 20% this summer, prompting political threats to leave the grid if interconnection and new plant approvals don't speed up.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's happening right here in Utah.
Speaker 1:We just read an article this week from one of our legislators and back to the Public Utility Energy and Technology Committee just denied a third request of Rocky Mountain Power to get a rate increase. Initially they started off early this year asking for a 30% rate increase, which got denied, and then they cut that in half. And then they came in asking for a 5% rate increase. It also got denied.
Speaker 1:And if I'm reading between the lines and trying to interpret the politics behind this, all it's like okay, why, why a rate increase? Are you building new generation? Are you building new transmission? Well, no, well, okay, why then are we hiking these rates? Why then are we are we hiking these rates? Because if, if you are serving Utahns, if you are serving the good of the community, then you are spending billions of dollars developing new generation and hardening the grid and expanding transmission and distribution. So where's the evidence of that? Right? I mean, I don't want to. I don't want to come off overly aggressive on the matter, I'm just trying to interpret. But really interesting, you know, and thank God that that the committee was able to just deny that and it's not happening until you know there's some concession here session here.
Speaker 2:Well, I I mean when you've said it, you said it, we've said it, you know for, for the for, for the entirety of our electrical grid. Really they have been. You know, utilities their demand has been driven by growth of population.
Speaker 2:For the most part, yes and then with prediction of that right with a prediction on ancillary kinds of you know, more power generation for different kinds of industries to kind of go along with that kind of growth. So you're going to have, like high power manufacturing and those types of things and that's just and it's. It's been a steady growth until until, actually, you know, actually data mining for blockchain actually, you know, actually you know data mining for, uh, blockchain. Really, I mean that that was one kind of that first kind of nugget in there is that that was one of those first wake-up calls that there are going to be, there's going to be demand.
Speaker 2:That's not just for, you know, extra homes yeah and, and now we've seen it just transfer right over into ai and that's just exploded it. And so, you know, the utilities have just been following like, well, we're just doing what we've been doing for decades, and they're I'm not. Are they caught flat-footed? I don't know. Are they just doing their thing? I don't know. But the pushback is real that the politicians are saying, well, okay, you may have had this operating model for the last 100 years, but it has to change in order to come or we're going to change it for you. Yeah, because there's enough interest and obviously the economics work out to where private power producers can come into the space and offer and supply and do these things. We would love for you to be able to build that. You know, build capacity, be able to keep up, but right now across the US, it doesn't appear as a whole, the utilities are doing that, and so this is, and you see things like this, and I think we're going to continue to see more of it.
Speaker 1:Well, and I loop back to you know my pride about our legislators and their insights and them taking strong lines in the sand, strong positions to enhance and move forward through that. Because you know we understand Utah is a regulated state. We understand Rocky Mountain Power has been that investor-owned utility for decades. They've adequately met the need. Now they're no longer meeting the need. The need. Now they're no longer meeting the need.
Speaker 1:We are hearing reports on the daily of, you know, hyperload consumers looking for power getting told no. And so in our last legislative session in the first quarter this year, we saw the sandal bill come through, though it was diluted, of you know, through a few different iterations. The bill that ended up passing is an electrical utilities amendments bill and it's quite nice in the regard that right now in the state of Utah, if I'm Google and I approach Rocky Mountain Power and they say no, I can go to any independent power producer in the state and I can buy power from them legally. And that is a big deal. And that's only one example of many of legislative enhancements that I keep referring to.
Speaker 1:In fact, I think we're going to do an entire episode to pay homage to our legislative body and Governor Cox, because we've identified no less than 20 legislative enhancements just in the last 24 months that are paving the way for, you know, grid modernization, independent power producers, building new power resources. We are the tip of the spear on that. In my mind, I think we have the most exciting project in all of Utah and eager to share more of the details with our listeners as it, as it evolves and becomes more public. But just, you know, I just feel gratitude for how advanced our legislative body is and that they've kind of put their money where the mouth is and they've, you know, put these and they continue to put measures in place, really, really enthusiastically, for nuclear too.
Speaker 2:So they do. They do and you're absolutely right, they are operating, generally speaking, as one unified body. Yeah, and I'm talking about when you've got. You've got the executive side, you've got the legislative side and they're working on this.
Speaker 2:Obviously, like anything else, there's lots of debates going back forth, but they're moving the ball forward very and considerably, absolutely, and again, they've had the foresight in the wake of maybe a lot of people going well, you know, westinghouse, you know a giant in the industry, you know, goes bankrupt because nuclear is just too damned expensive. Yeah, well, it takes a lot of it takes a lot of foresight and and some risk to say, okay, yes, but it's coming and and and we can play a part and we can play a role and, yes, that happened, that needed to happen, that's going, that's that's westinghouse is really. They're reinventing themselves, they're they're reading, they're doubling down, they're doing this thing. Ultimately, what they're doing is absolutely right and it's going to lay the foundation for the next 50 years to come. Even the Westinghouses or any other company in this space.
Speaker 2:They haven't backed away from that and they said that's okay, that's happened, but the future's now it's changing and we need to be a part of that. And they've listened to the, they've made decisions, they've listened to the right people, they're making good decisions and really, I think in the future it's going to be a case study and how this, how government and private industry work, when you know when they work well, it this, this will be a case study that says this is when it all worked well together, when there were the right kinds of checks and balances between the two. They listened to who they needed to listen to and they push things forward how they needed to push things forward and they work with all the proper entities and, as a result, you know, we think, you know you and I think that they're positioning Utah to become, you know, the center, the epicenter for energy, the energy future in the entire West.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, Absolutely. We're going to dive into that one deep Coming up folks, we're at the top of the hour here.
Speaker 2:I want to sneak in one more headline. I don't know, did I mention this at the top? Okay, I know I was talking to you before we even started today the global amount of money that's in this, because I think, since we're talking about headlines and I think it's a big one, we'll leave people with this. If that's okay, I'll wrap to how big of a deal, because it caught me. This number caught my attention, okay, reuters. Global energy investment set to hit record $3.3 trillion in 2025. Repeat that Global energy investment set to hit record $3.3 trillion in just 2025. Holy cow, you and I were running a.
Speaker 2:We were joking about a tote board last year or last well, actually last year, but our in a season one about all the billions that we we kept seeing added up, yeah, and added up, and added up, and added up, well, okay, we're at 3.3 trillion in one year in one year and this is this is, this is, this is uh, this was a report a couple weeks ago.
Speaker 2:Part of it's a surge elsewhere in the world in clean energy. Some of it's in what we're seeing with nuclear energy storage yeah, across the whole landscape of energy, and it's huge. That's just a staggering number. That is staggering.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great one number. That is staggering, yeah. So, here we are. That's a great one to include in the season opener here for season two. I mean that number needed to be in here.
Speaker 2:Buckle up is basically what we're saying. Buckle up Absolutely, because here we go, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Thank you guys for tuning in and stay with us. We're just getting started. You're not going to want to miss the next episode until next time on the frontier line.
