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THE FRONTIER LINE
Hosts Wayne Aston and David Murray explore the critical global pillars of infrastructure development and energy production, from traditional methods to future-forward advancements. The Frontier Line covers the latest industry news, energy innovations, and sustainability trends that are shaping the future. Through expert interviews with industry leaders in renewable energy, utility-scale battery storage, and waste-to-energy technologies, the podcast provides insights into the evolving landscape of energy efficiency and sustainable infrastructure. By focusing on the intersection of innovation and the politics of energy, The Frontier Line highlights transformative ideas and technologies poised to deliver cost-efficient, resilient, and sustainable solutions for global industries.
THE FRONTIER LINE
End of Year Predictions for 2025
Welcome back to the Frontier Line. Hello Wayne, hey Dave, today we're going to tackle that common thing that everybody does at the end of the year we're going to give our predictions for 2025.
Speaker 2:Oh fun, yeah, we're going to look into our crystal balls.
Speaker 1:It's that last year already. It's that last year. Is that last year? You know? What do we want to do? What do we want 2025 to look like? All right, so I've been thinking about this for a while. I mean, I think about this. I think a lot because we're obviously, as we run our business, we're obviously planning for the future, we're looking into 2025. We're hoping, we're making all the right predictions, but we're also looking at the broader market and what's happening in the world. So I'm going to kick this off by saying that 2025 will be marked by, in all the ways, a pronounced continuation of the AI revolution.
Speaker 1:Ai revolution now, I don't think that's a huge prediction because we know that's happening, sure, um, but I think when we talk about its implication in the infrastructure space, it's in what is actually occurring in ai right now regarding uh automation and generative uh and and generative content, and as we move into an agentic space, which, if you haven't heard of agents, I will say in an AI term what that means is that if you have a personal assistant or a virtual assistant who would work and do all the things for you, Now imagine, imagine, having an AI assistant that you could say I need you to do this and you could give it a. You know you could. You could write in a box like I need you to look at my calendar, do these things, look at this. Give me a summary email. I need you to start responding to emails that come in that are from status group people, and then I need you to do all these things for me. That's where we're going.
Speaker 1:So, as you and I talk about on the frontier line of the frontier of infrastructure and all the needed power and all these improvements that have to happen in our national infrastructure, what we're really talking about at the end of the day, is ushering in the use of AI in ways that most of us haven't seen yet. We really don't know the implications. We don't know necessarily how corporate America is eventually going to integrate it, how corporate America is eventually going to integrate it. What we're seeing right now is there's a lot of unknown, and so they're sort of introducing it where they can. They're supporting it where they can. Some, certainly companies are going all in, but some aren't, and most of the industry still is wondering how they use AI. Does it just simply replace people or is it a tool of augmentation to make the existing people more productive.
Speaker 1:All of this is going to start to shake out, I think next year. That's my first sort of overarching prediction is that we're going to start to see how this is actually going to be deployed. We're going to start to see use cases where companies are going in and going, you know, maybe creating creating virtual workforces and, and, and trying and playing with that and trying to. You'll have the simple answer which is all, we'll just replace people with this. Most would say that that's. That's probably going to fail eventually, because you've got to have a balance of both. We will see, but right now it's everything all things AI, All things AI in 2025.
Speaker 2:That's exciting. Yeah, okay, that's my first one. Okay, I think my first prediction is that in 2025, we're going to see nationally the municipal codification of land use and zoning specific to data centers. Because right now, what many states and cities and municipalities are wrestling with is data centers have kind of been lumped into this industrial general zoning and it doesn't really fit. There's too much about the nomenclature of data centers that is not industrial, it doesn't fit, it's not commercial, it's not residential zoning. So a new land use ordinance, city ordinances, state code and land use around data centers specifically. I think that's going to become a thing in 2025. Maybe starting in some of these bigger metropolitan areas. Maybe, you know, virginia leads this Phoenix. Some of the big data center-centric metropolitan areas are kind of already starting to kind of leak some of that language to us or signal some of this language to us, and so I think that's going to become sweeping.
Speaker 1:I agree. I agree with that. To that, like, I think we're going to see, continue to see, storage breakthroughs on how you store energy for, for bigger kinds of use cases. I think that's that's. We already know of some of them and we're watching them, but I think we're going to see that the broader market is going to see these solutions come to bear. Come to bear, You're going to maybe see in a community where perhaps communities might engage an AI-run battery storage system to where a particular community might have backup or a development, maybe a developer who says, okay, what we're going to do, let's say, you know, a thousand single family homes might build that grid, that micro grid, with some, with some AI on top of it, with a smart storage, so that so that, uh, you know, their uh cost of, of, uh, electricity is, is, is predictable and it's, it's stable and it's low, uh, but then the reliance, um, and the idea that it'll never, that it won't go down, and that we have some resiliency there. So I think we're going to see, you know, we're gonna see some of those things so as well.
Speaker 1:Another thing on the energy, I think probably you and I I mean things we talk about all the time. I think SMR is going to become an acronym that not just us, not just the people who talk about this, not just people in this space start to become very familiar with. It's going to be the parents, the aunts, the uncles, the brothers, the sisters, the people who don't really pay attention to the energy space. We're going to start talking about small modular reactors and what that means and what that means for communities, and we're going to see certain communities who you know there have been. There are already some of these projects going on. I think we're going to see some momentum and movement into that space. You know and I'll just add one more, one thing that we talk about a lot. I think this might be also the year where we see a lot more talk about hydrogen. What do you think?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, based on some conversation just this last week, I definitely see hydrogen. I mean, since we're paying attention to headlines and we're paying attention to white papers and we're paying attention to a lot of these publications in the UK and globally, hydrogen has been a topic of conversation, but I think it's going to move closer to a mainstream conversation inside the US. For sure, dovetailing to that, I predict that in 2025, predict that in 2025, it's going to be signaled by an amplified kind of rash of power outages in all states. I think we're going to. This is what's going to be the signal. We're going to see these power outages increasing, rolling brownouts, increasing the rolling brown outs, increasing the rolling brown out.
Speaker 2:Guys, distinction between a brown out and a blackout is rolling brown. Brown out is a controlled power reduction, not necessarily cutting the power, but it's the, it's your utility company saying, hey, you can only use your utility, your your washer and dryer at this time of day. We're actually going to reduce power. Your brightness of your lights might actually go down because the utility company is planning. It's a strategic brownout to kind of make sure that it doesn't fully break the system and other things can continue operating.
Speaker 2:I think you're going to see forced brownouts and more power outages, and then what that will trigger in 2025 is broader legislative adjustment and enhancement on top of some of the stuff we've already been talking about. We've been talking about how municipalities and states are incentivizing all of this, and that's coming in at a legislative level. But I'm talking about deregulation. I'm talking about what we've already started to see happening. What we already know is approaching the hill in Utah here in January is and we're calling it soft deregulation for now, in Utah, it might end up being full deregulation nationally, but I'm predicting that legislative measures will be forced upon cities and states to accommodate the demand of power that's amplified by these outages.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's going to be that for sure. The dialogue around power and you're going to whether it's on the federal level pushing down or states pushing down municipalities, or municipalities and states pushing back against federal, whatever that is going to be a topic of conversation that we're going to see a lot of in this coming year, for sure. You know, one of the things you and I are engaged in a lot because we're looking at the other parts of infrastructure that go along with, say, data centers and high power manufacturing. One of the things you and I deal with pretty routinely is fiber, yeah, and that infrastructure, and one necessitates the other, as, come the data centers, also comes the build out of fiber and broadband and these things that have sort of been a utility in many ways, like it's a necessary thing that we all have now, and it's going to be interesting to see how that continues to roll out across the United States, because right now we know that, generally speaking, in pretty much every urban area you've got good communication, but now, as these projects are expanding away from city centers, there's a need to build significant infrastructure into these smaller communities that might not ever have considered, or you know one, not no one, but a local entity or a private provider, they weren't going to spend the dollars because it's just, it's just, it doesn't make sense economically.
Speaker 1:But it changes when you start talking about infrastructure projects, and they are infrastructure projects. These are, these are massive infrastructure like electricity, like a data center, like you know, like a giant geothermal plant or a hundred percent Right. So I think I think that's interesting. Do you think this is the year of the private-public partnerships, where they become something that people become more familiar with too, where we finally see this, as we talk about it a lot, that the only way you solve some of these things is you've got to figure out how to work with private industry, like it's going to be a thing?
Speaker 2:Yes, with private industry, like it's, it's going to be a thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think that's a, that's an axiomatic prediction that dovetails, on top of the you know, the last three, and that is, with all of the legislative enhancements coming down toward deregulation. It's, it seems, it seems just intuitive to predict that independent power producers are going to be coming online in mass. Okay, and that is that to me seems like the most plausible way that we address the surging demand, because we recognize that utilities are not going to be able to meet the demand, and so independent power productions become is going to become a real thing, and it could surpass utilities' current production, like at the rates that we're talking about, what DOE just talked about in the last episode. If we're to triple power production in the next 36 months, to me that means that there's probably more private power production in this nation than there is municipal publicly owned power production. That's a huge transition, huge shift, monumental shift, a monumental legacy, like once in a lifetime shift. For the first time in the history of our nation probably occurs in 2025.
Speaker 1:Agreed, I agree. What do you think? I'm going to throw a prediction out there, but it's. It's one I know you agree on, but I think it's going to. I think it's going to it will rise once again. It's always a story, but I think it plays more prominently given the change over in the federal administration from the Biden administration, the Trump administration and I just and I think, the narrative regarding the players in the world right now on a geopolitical scale, but I think cybersecurity arms race oh yeah, oh, oh boys yes.
Speaker 1:I think we're there.
Speaker 2:Oh boys, yes, I think we're there.
Speaker 1:If we weren't already there, I'm sure the people in the know would say listen, son, we've been there for a number of years already, but I think this is the year where there's no denying that there's a lot going on outside of what would be a traditional, obviously, arms race is that it ramps up, and I think part of that due in part to AI, actually, and leveraging different kinds of things. I mean, we've seen plenty of use cases already about that. So what do you think about that? Do you think we're on the verge? Do you think it's too much to call it a cybersecurity?
Speaker 2:arms race. No, I think that's right on. You're hitting the nail on the head with that. You've termed it. It's pretty scary, because Time is of the essence. Can we not only harden the grid, can we not only produce more power, but can we also improve the physical and cybersecurity elements of power production and transmission fast enough and at a magnitude that is commensurate to the threat? I don't believe that we can. I think we're going to experience casualties and I think the Trump administration creates a lot of reasons for a lot of people not in the US to want to do that, to want to accelerate that, and so that puts a lot of pressure on the administration. You know, to get the best people and do their best to try and head that off at the pass, but I think it's inevitable.
Speaker 1:It's obviously. You know cybersecurity plays into the energy conversation.
Speaker 1:We've talked about it extensively, about what it means to be able to take out a grid or take out an area yeah, and when you're talking about how we're all connected right now, there are real ways where, on the cyber security front, you could take out, uh, a water treatment plant, you could take out an energy production facility, um, you know a power plant? Um, these are real threats and something you know a power plant. These are real threats and something you know. Way back episode we talked about well, we've talked about it a lot but the fragility of the grid.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that you know, depending upon how you're looking at it, it wouldn't take a lot to wreak havoc in a very sustained way, if certain kinds of things happened in in you know all at once, right I think that's maybe the biggest vulnerability.
Speaker 2:Is this archaic grid that has taken over a hundred years to build, that hasn't got any of this tech built into it at scale, and the advancements that the bad actors have at their fingertips today that far outstrip what that grid's capable of resisting. I think that's a really dangerous recipe. We can build power independently and we can shore that up with, you know, the most advanced technologies, and so that's. That's not the weakness. The achilles heel is that existing grid trying to transmit, you know, gigawatts, petawatts of energy all over the country. That that's, you know that's. That's something that can't be fixed overnight, as much as we want to, and throw all the money you want at it, that doesn't solve itself this year. That's going to be an ongoing problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, an ongoing fight. Do you think businesses in general appropriately account because I don't think it's required account for the risk on their balance sheets for a cybersecurity breach? And I ask that because I haven't seen maybe you have I haven't seen a lot of movement in the front where you know we go back a few years back, like where Target got hit, I mean, and they lost a lot of value Last year, what was it? 20 and me, I think, got hit. They lost, you know, they were exposed and it pretty much collapsed a multi-billion dollar company overnight. Yeah, and I don't think that that ever gets accounted for. Really, we do about other things, right, about the certain risk profiles, but you know, I don't know. I'm kind of curious if you know also, if maybe this is the year we come. You know that you know wall street on down starts to reckon with like what, what cyber security really actually poses in in terms of monetary, uh, risk, because it.
Speaker 2:It is huge, it's legit and maybe maybe it's a case for expanded insurability, like the programs you know, insurance programs, expanding to kind of meet that vulnerability. That would be an interesting thing to keep an eye on. Can a company you know insure themselves enough to? I think, from a transparency perspective, think of operating a fund and having all the third party constituents to a fund like we're building? Transparency is a big deal, and so accounting to your investor constituent of accounting to public, whatever the reporting requirements are. I think with the new administration, transparency in all things is going to get a lot. It's going to get magnified dramatically for companies, because this is so much of what's in the headlines politically is all this nonsense of all these three-letter agencies and all this stuff that's been concealed to the detriment of the country and this $36 trillion debt that we find ourselves in. There's so many reasons why transparency is going to be good, but it's also going to be a big challenge for many people to adjust into transparency. So that'll be interesting, it will be interesting.
Speaker 1:So if any listener out there, if you're heavy in the insurance industry and you have an opinion, we'd love to interview you because I'm really kind of curious On the investing side of life, where you start to really look at the risk profile of going and investing in a company and are they properly accounting? I think it's a fascinating topic that I personally don't believe enough attention has been given to. Agreed, I personally don't believe enough attention has been given to we read enough on the outcomes of this. But I mean just again the two examples I used overnight, you know, overnight a company can collapse. I mean that's how significant a breach can be and I'm just you know how we're kind of dealing with that. And I'm just you know, howard, you're kind of dealing with that. It's certainly inside baseball for a lot of operating a business and you know making sure that your risk profile is too great, but you know, I think for a certain kind of listener, it would be a fascinating conversation, anyway.
Speaker 1:So I'm sitting here racking my brain because I have a few of them, but do you have any off the top of your head?
Speaker 2:For other predictions. Other predictions yeah, to move, to move. Uh well, I'll predict a bold prediction that the valley forge impact parks actually have traction here, with multiple science reactions. We're actually moving dirt. We're actually building stuff here in 2025. I'm just gonna call it. I'm bab ruth calling left field right now, because the time is right. We've got years and years and we've got a lot of momentum and we've got a lot of capital now pent up ready to do something, and so now getting this whole regulatory environment on track feels like the stars are aligned for all that to come together, and I think 2025 is the year it does.
Speaker 1:Well, I second, third, fourth, fifth that prediction Hell yeah, let's go, let's do this. You know it better. Damn well, we better damn well. Yeah, considering where we've been and what we've gone through already this year to get where we are, yeah, I think that's a hell of a prediction. I'm down, I'm down with that. Yeah, let think that's a hell of a prediction. I'm I'm, I'm down, I'm down with that, yeah, let's do that, shall, we do that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. One thing I was thinking about, just as kind of as we, as we see things go forward. I think this is going to sound obscure, but like voice and kind of voice interface, language interface and how we deal with technology. I've just seen things change so quickly, like even in like the last six months. I you know just in personal habits about me talking, getting comfortable talking to my phone all the time.
Speaker 1:I think again, with AI and as that starts to interface, that starts to get more common for people, and I think this might be the year where it's not just the first adoption crowd or that first kind of 20% of using technology, it starts to expand out into the more general population. I know a lot of people are used to doing you know they'll talk to Alexa, they'll turn on music, they'll do it. But I also think those get better Because I think, as AI kind of ramps up it's going, they'll talk to Alexa, they'll turn on music, they'll do it. But I also think those get better, yeah, because I think, as AI kind of ramps up, it's going to be able to and that changes. It's going to change, I think, how we do a lot of things when we can do things simpler and quicker and easier and we just build up that habit.
Speaker 1:I think this might be that year where we start to see a lot of that. I think we see the tech companies start to roll out that kind of interface to where they're also committed to making it easy to interact, where we're not necessarily typing on our phones anymore, we're starting to talk and you see corrective measures. They're like oh, let me correct that for you. I'm going to. I have an AI, I'm going to. Okay, you gave me the. As you were driving, you were yammering and giving me all crap. I'm going to clean it up for you. Does this sound better? Yeah, I think we can see some of that.
Speaker 2:That would be awesome. That would be so cool. I mean, I'll tell you my typing skills are good enough and fast enough, but my gosh, if I could speak it and have it accurately produce the text of what I'm saying both on my laptop and my phone text messaging. I mean, it's incredible how much my iPhone actually corrects it wrongly. You know what I'm saying? Oh, I do. I put the damn word in and it auto-corrects to the wrong word, which sometimes isn't even a word. It drives me insane.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't mean duck, it's so bad. I actually didn't mean duck yeah.
Speaker 2:I didn't mean duck, it's so bad. I actually didn't mean duck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that was not the word. I was going for Exactly.
Speaker 2:It's so bad Right now. Every single day, autocorrect on text messaging fails me, so that would be a really welcome prediction to see 2025 clean that up to where we could effectively use the voice interaction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it might be out of the air. Use the voice interaction. Yeah, I, I, I think it might be the year and you know, for those of us out there who are, who might be a bit oh I don't know OCD when it comes to grammar and things you know of an old school, I would really welcome that because I, you know, I, I, yeah, I, like, I, the voice. Call me that old-fashioned weird person, but yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm hoping I've got another really bold prediction to make. Okay, and this is going to be, you'll be sensitive to this one. I predict that we're going to see a serious retreat or rolling back on the EV initiatives. On the ev initiatives I. I think we're going to see a a cooling effect on the ev markets globally because of the inability to expand grid and power capacity. I think let's we're going to start slamming into these walls where as good as ev you know know electric vehicles both, for you know personal and commercial use. As much as that is a great idea, I think the limitations of available power and power scarcity and all of the coupling compounding effects of that are going to really cool the EV market off.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know. I mean that's market off. Oh, I don't know. I mean that's a really good prediction. I don't know. I mean I've thought about it. The reason I say that I don't know is it's really, if we're looking forward in terms of like, okay, I have kind of an understanding, I think, of how the new administration is probably going to tackle that and they've been very transparent with that.
Speaker 1:But Elon in the mix changes everything. Yeah, and I don't know what that means for EV. I think there's a hardening that's happening in the infrastructure, but I think it's more in like, if you will. You know, the breadbasket of America, not on the coast so much as it is not the California type of initiative, like we're going to just go crazy nuts and it's all going to be. It's more of shoring up those alternative highways. So there's, you know, we've got stations and it's not just for Tesla, it's for the Rivians and the Lucids and everybody else and every other manufacturer that's going on so the people can charge and get across the country. I think some of that could be built out. But I don't to your point. I don't know, you might be right. You might be right. I mean it's going to be. That is going to be one. I can't wait next year to come back and look at and see what happens this year.
Speaker 2:And I'm agnostic to which way it goes, but I think if we had a crystal ball here, that's the way I'm leaning, because Elon is solving so many problems nationally I mean in the media and politically and cleaning things up and doing that, I mean, but how much can one guy do? And it's a problem that money can't fix, like all the money in the world won't fix this problem, and so that's that's why I'd lean toward that, that cooling and and going into a bearish, a more bearish market for EVs.
Speaker 1:That will be interesting. I know, and I don't remember who it was I know it was the CEO of one of the car management factors was pleading that we continue on the electropath, but I don't remember who. That again, I don't remember who it was. So I know there's a lot of stuff you know because they've committed a lot of money and direction and infrastructure to this. So I you know that's it's going to be interesting.
Speaker 2:So it's going to be interesting and that's not a long-term, that's not a permanent prediction, that's just 2025. Yeah, see, when we look at a graph and see, like we added this, tv sales came up this much over the last 10 years, what did it do in 2020? I think it's going to be a down. It's going to be a down, it's going to be a down slope and that might be for a couple short years. It might be prolonged. It's going to be totally driven off of our ability to make all these other predictions come to pass effectively and bring this grid up. Agreed.
Speaker 1:I think I'll jump on one thing that is close to our art, especially in terms of things, and I think we're going to start to see this market heat up, and I'm I'm glad for it, and this is sustainable materials. I'm thinking about what we're, what we're trying to do, but I think in also the, the bigger market we're going to see different, really different modalities of of whether it's, you know, it's going to be the adoption of carbon nanotubes and graphene and 3D printed concrete structures, and materials in the SMR development that we've never even considered Right Like a lot of this stuff that just had.
Speaker 1:That's been. We know, because we've been paying attention that you know, for the last five years there have been a lot of groups working on this stuff but actually finally having a market for it and getting the costs down, and I think we're starting to start to see a lot of these things finally come online and we obviously would like to get ours and get that down the road and break ground. Oh, yeah, yeah, as part of our whole go-to-market strategy and what we're trying to accomplish. Um, so I think, I think that could be part of it. And also this, just the the, the cradle, the cradle about maybe rethinking about okay, well, how can we reuse some of these things, but in different ways? Not not recycling, yeah Right, not recycling like it's being done right now, but saying're going to take these and we're going to turn these into this kind of product and then they can be reused over and over and over again. I think that's finally settling out and you see some real good use cases for some of this stuff Absolutely Anything else.
Speaker 2:I have a couple others, but I'm going to hold off because I don't want to come back next year. This time Next year you're going to keep telling me wrong. That's the fun part. I've tendered the ones that I feel confident about in this prediction process, so I'm going to leave it at that. Those are some really bold, big predictions.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll add well, not to. Although you said something about, I think, the decentralization of power. I will bring that one up again. I think we're going to see a move to that. We're going to see. It's just we're going to start to see, once we have these big companies coming on with these major initiatives as far as power, you're going to start to see communities hopefully be able to benefit from this, yeah, and where they'll be able to help from this, yeah, and where they'll be able to help these communities out and they won't have to rely on this larger stuff, yeah, um, I'm thinking let's see, oh, no, waste energy, I think. That's. I think I think we're still a little bit early, but I think we're going to start to see more of that. I mean, we see a lot of it. You know, I'm thinking a couple of the other little, yeah, reliant. That's going to be fun to watch this next year.
Speaker 2:It continues. It's on a trajectory. I think it stays on that trajectory. Yeah, it'll be good to watch.
Speaker 1:I'm going to end on one thing here, and that is it's kind of an EV-related thing. I think 2025 might be the year we start to see a consideration from capital, from businesses that have considered going okay, we're going to go the EV route. So I'm thinking of transport, you know big, big, big capital expenditure going. You know, maybe we ought to look at hydrogen, you know, and maybe we really saw to seriously start investing in considering hydrogen, whereas hydrogen has been talked about. But I think, to your point about the EV slowdown, I'm going to say, to kind of underscore what you're saying, I think part of that too could be because hydrogen is coming on fast and it's an infrastructure that has to be built out.
Speaker 1:But if I'm running a fleet of semis and I know a little bit because my brother's involved in some of the space and I know how much the infrastructure is on the EV side just to do these big semis, I think it's going to give a lot of companies a chance to say you know what we really ought to look at this and say maybe we'll hold off for a minute. Oh yeah, yeah, I know we know what California's doing, but let's hold off for a minute. Oh yeah, yeah, I know we're. We know what California is doing, but let's hold off for a minute, because maybe EV isn't the way to go, maybe hydrogen is the better way and, ultimately, long-term. This is, this is. I think 2025 is the year for that.
Speaker 2:I agree with you a hundred percent. We've already seen some signals in 2024 from Cummins, caterpillar, rolls Royce, like, like major major engine manufacturers that lead the game, who have already started producing these prototypes and these technologies, and BMW. So I think you're absolutely right about that. That'll be exciting.
Speaker 1:It will be exciting. We'll see Well, definitely 2025. It's going to be a banner year, Wayne. It is a banner year. It is going to be a banner year, Wayne.
Speaker 2:It is a banner year. It is going to be so exciting, so fun, so exciting to get into 2025.
Speaker 1:I also predict. Last prediction. Let's come up with a number. How many episodes do we drop in 2025?
Speaker 2:Oh man, I bet we're into our 150th episode this time next year. I'm going to go with that one that sounds good to me. I just did the quick math and that's a few episodes a month. That's a safe prediction 150. 200 would be ambitious. Okay, Maybe we'll go for that, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm looking forward to doing this and everything else we're working on in 2025. Yeah, likewise, all right. Well, I think we're going to call it good. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Listen. Shout out to all of our listeners Gratitude for supporting the show, supporting us and all of our thought here this year. We hope you'll join us in 2025. We hope you're as enthusiastic about the future as we are. Send all of our best wishes for the Christmas season and a very happy new year.
Speaker 1:Yes, Merry Christmas. Happy new year to everybody out there. May it be the best one yet. Absolutely All right. Well, until next time or next year, maybe on the Frontier Line.
