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THE FRONTIER LINE
Hosts Wayne Aston and David Murray explore the critical global pillars of infrastructure development and energy production, from traditional methods to future-forward advancements. The Frontier Line covers the latest industry news, energy innovations, and sustainability trends that are shaping the future. Through expert interviews with industry leaders in renewable energy, utility-scale battery storage, and waste-to-energy technologies, the podcast provides insights into the evolving landscape of energy efficiency and sustainable infrastructure. By focusing on the intersection of innovation and the politics of energy, The Frontier Line highlights transformative ideas and technologies poised to deliver cost-efficient, resilient, and sustainable solutions for global industries.
THE FRONTIER LINE
Company Spotlight- Burns & McDonnell
Discover the fascinating world of energy innovation with Burns & McDonnell. From the massive Vistra Moss Landing Energy Storage Facility in California to the cutting-edge Pioneer Generation Station in North Dakota, their projects are nothing short of monumental. We're exploring how they're driving the renewable energy revolution with initiatives like the Alliant Energy Solar Program in Wisconsin and pioneering advancements in nuclear energy with the BWXT microreactor in Virginia. It's all about finding that perfect energy balance to power our future.
As we transition to a greener future, we tackle the pressing need for infrastructure upgrades and the shift from coal to cleaner natural gas and hydrogen technologies. Burns & McDonnell's innovative approaches, including low-emission solutions at the Laurel Generation Station, are crucial in navigating these changes. We also address the challenges posed by an aging power grid and the critical role companies like Burns & McDonnell play in ensuring reliable power for businesses and remote workers. Join us as we explore how pragmatic solutions can lead the way to sustainable energy.
And we're back.
Speaker 1:We're back, hello, wayne. Ah, how are you, dave? I'm well. Welcome everyone to the Frontier Line. Yeah, that that Good to see you again.
Speaker 2:It's good to see you. It's good to see you. How's the workout this morning?
Speaker 1:Workout was fantastic Did you hit it this morning? Not yet, not yet. My body's still recovering from last night. Yeah, still recovering, still sore Ibuprofen and Tylenol for sure. I'm falling away on this health journey and it's kicking my ass, but it's a good ass kicking.
Speaker 2:It is. I was having a funny thing yesterday with Sisyphus, you know Jocko Willink oh yeah, you've seen probably his thing online about Sisyphus, you know and so I was researching Sisyphus, you know, because I feel like Sisyphus a lot of the time, right almost to the top. Yeah, get that boulder up to the top and then roll it back down. That's totally the fitness game, right? You want to always be pushing the boulder. It's painful, but you always want to be pushing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had that. I had that thought also of like you know, this has to just continue on Meaning like you never I mean you can take it easy, but it's like if you do have to continue to challenge and push and do all that, or it's just you're just I mean I get it. It makes a lot of people feel good, it makes me feel good just to go to the gym and work out, but in order to really continue, you just have to continue to push yourself and push yourself and push yourself, I think, to see results, and that's not an easy thing, especially when you've got an older body.
Speaker 1:It's not as pliable as it used to be.
Speaker 2:It's crazy how much it changes. Like you add 10 years on to what your body can do.
Speaker 1:Five years, Five years. I remember five years ago and it's like this is different. This is different, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:It's good, but it's different, but there's no sense of arrival, I guess is the point.
Speaker 1:You know, you're not, we're not ever shooting for you there, you know if we stop, then we lose it in 90 days, right, and we're going back. So it's always always figure out a way very quickly to enjoy the journey yes, you know, and enjoy and and to take stock and what you're doing on a daily basis. Because that's it. If you're going for like okay, it's gonna be good, then yeah, I'm saying I think I think he's, I think I'll be happy when, yeah, I'll be happy. No, I'm happy now. I'm happy that I'm able to still go do this. That's right, that I'm able to push myself like this, and that's kind of what that's the wins I take. It's like, okay, yep, it's hard, but hell, I'm alive, I'm kicking, I'm doing this and that's my, you know, that's my gift to myself.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, amen, yeah Well, should we? Should we? Should we do another company spotlight? Absolutely, we're having fun with these. I mean, as much as I'd love doing headlines, we'll get to that. Maybe next episode we'll drop some headlines. But this, this is another great company spotlight, guys. And just so you know behind the scenes, like we were going off this list and we're connecting with our people and we're inviting them on the show and so we're kind of rolling out these company spotlights based on the fact that we're getting everyone confirming saying, yeah, we want to be on the show, right, so we've got interviews coming, yes, I love to love to talk to people from each of these companies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, these are companies that you know we want to do business with. That's the right thing. We, we admire, we like them. Some of them, we might that we end up spotlight we want to do business with. We admire, we like them, some of them, we might that we end up spotlighting we might not do business with, we might not you know they, we, we just might find the ones we like and we say, hey, these are great, let's talk about them. Yeah, um, we might not have an opportunity to work with them, but for the most part, I mean, these are the you know, this is this things and we're, we're happy to be, you know, uh, part of that conversation, absolutely so so leveraging our own temerity of building a team around us of the the most credible people on earth caused us to reach out to Burns McDonald.
Speaker 2:Yes, months ago, um, and and and engage them in a conversation around power production, and, as we've dove into the rabbit hole with Burns McDonald, it's been nothing short of inspiring and satisfying. It's similar to some of the other companies we've spotlighted, but why don't you give us a kickoff intro on Burns and McDonald's.
Speaker 1:That sounds good. And you know, in keeping with how this conversation started, these guys have muscles, yeah, lots of them. These guys are top-notch Olympic athletes. How about that? Yeah, so they're at the top of their game, and so to get to be in, uh, that space and talk to people who are at the top of their game is inspiring. So I mean for sure, uh so, uh, another company last time we spotted, spotlighted schneider electric. Uh, another company that was born in the 1800s. Yeah, also born in the 1800s. 1800s, yeah, it was a good, you know, it was a good century 1898. Wow, he is 100% employee-owned engineering, architecture and construction firm headquartered in Kansas City, missouri, missouri, with over 75 offices worldwide. The company offers comprehensive services across various sectors, including energy, aviation, water and manufacturing.
Speaker 1:Not small, another not small company. Founded by engineers Clinton S Burns and Robert E McDonald, the firm initially focused on water and sewer systems. Over the decades, it's expanded its expertise to encompass a wide range of engineering and construction services. In 1985, the employees purchased the company, transitioning it to a 100% employee-owned model, which has been a cornerstone of its culture and success. Love that, I love, love, love, love that. The global reach and operations. You know I mentioned 75 offices globally. They deliver projects grounded in safety and a desire to make a difference, aiming to make clients successful.
Speaker 1:The company's family of companies includes 1898 and Company, a business technology and security consultancy, and ASCO, a heavy industrial construction company. Again, financial performance-wise, as of 2023, burns McDonald reported revenues of 6.9 billion, reflecting its robust market presence and the growing demand for its integrated services. And to the ethos and sustainability again, you know, a wonderful conversation the company's mission is to make clients successful by delivering projects rounded in safety and is a desire to make a difference. Burns McDonnell emphasizes employee ownership, social responsibility and a commitment to safety and health, which are integral to its operations and culture. And then, if we go on to just kind of what they're doing, you know, through 1898 and company, burns McDonnell offers business technology and security consultancy services, helping clients future-proof their portfolios and turn data into action across the entire asset lifecycle. This reflects the company's commitment to innovation and digital transformation. And then, you know, I guess, as of recent developments, you know their CEO, ray Kowalik, would retire at the end of 2023 and be succeeded by Leslie Duke, making a significant leadership transition for the company.
Speaker 1:And that's where I'll leave it right now, not getting into maybe their notable projects, but again a significant company, american-founded company, just doing wonderful things in the space and wonderful meaning they're making an impact, they are making a difference and they are helping partner companies or clients make a difference. They know their stuff. We've talked to them. They really know their stuff and it's just it's again. Being in some of these calls with people so immersed in the space, so with such a depth of knowledge, is like nothing else. It's just to see kind of magicians and just at work about how they approach they take very complex problems and break them down and provide solutions Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I want to touch on global ranking for a second because it's relevant to me. It was relevant in like seeking them out. Burns and McDonald has consistently ranked among the top engineering construction firms globally, particularly in the power sector Ranked number one in power design for seven consecutive years, according to Engineering News Record. Ranked number one in transmission and distribution design firms globally. Ranked number two in fossil fuel design firms and contractors. And get this one ranked number 10 in nuclear power plant design firms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's not something. I didn't even know there was that list. Neither did I.
Speaker 2:So that should give everybody a really healthy dose of understanding beyond, you know this legacy history, the amount of time in business, the number of offices globally, the revenues. I mean we love Burns and McDonald. We have engaged Burns and McDonald specifically to solve our decentralized power production plans. Yes, we want to build power plants in all the locations that we're developing Valley Forge Impact Parks and we wanted the best company on earth to be able to design and actually build those power plants for us and actually build those power plants for us based on whatever natural resources we have available per site. That changes with every site we look at but also to be able to help us structure the nomenclature of power production.
Speaker 2:And specifically, we look at our Utah Wyoming sites. We're talking about using these natural gas-fired reciprocating engines. We're going to get deeper into that as we go along here, because there's so many advancements in that niche, yeah, in that space, but also gas-fired turbines, also commercial solar arrays, also utility scale battery backup. I mean Burns McDonald does all of it, Right, right, and so to be able to have one shop and have all of that power production under one umbrella is a really big deal and it also helps when you're going into new markets to be able to lead with a team like this that you can. That is so reputable you can. Just it's a clandestine record. You can go and you can Google and you can understand immediately who we're dealing with, right? Where do you want to go from here, dave? You want to talk about some of the prominent projects.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I was just thinking I'll give you kudos really quick. I'm just going to give you some kudos because you know I think kudos really quick. I'm just gonna give you some kudos because you know I, I think and it's been an interesting evolution in the last six months. You know, when we, as we look at some of these project spaces, obviously we're going to reach out to people we know and local, and and there's nothing wrong with that because there's some very talented people and we'll have to, we'll have to work with locals and burns mcdonald, for example, have to work with, probably some locals to help facilitate this.
Speaker 1:But we went for the bat, like you're like OK, well, let's look who's the best. Who's the best, who's doing this, the best in the world, knowing full well that their clients are countries or giant corporations, and although we have aspirations to be, you know, a bigger corporation, a big company, and you know, try to grow this the way we think it can be grown, as you do, not an aspiration to be country, I don't think yet. No, you know, you just said that. I mean, it's just sort of like, let's go and see if we can talk to the best and see what they have to say and see if they'll engage. And I'll be damned, but we are talking to the best and they are reciprocating. They're like this is fantastic. We love what you're talking about. This is exciting to be involved on the ground level with something that actually makes a lot of sense to us, and we want to help you do that the right way. And so you know, nice, nice way to shoot for the stars, man, thank you.
Speaker 1:Because, damn, thank you. Yes, here, here we are in conversations and you know, this has been sort of, yeah, I'm, I'm just going to reach out, see what they have to say. Worst thing they can say is no or ignore us, and that has not been the case, right, so well, anyway, it's now is a no, I mean, it works. It was a company spotlight, but it but it all, but but also it just it. It also was impressive because you have these companies, like a person, mcdonald, like okay, now, who are these? Who's this group? Like? We're not, you know, we're not a billion dollar corporation calling them yet Um, yeah, um. But they're willing to say, yeah, but what you're talking about is interesting. So they're looking not necessarily at the group, yet they're saying, okay, these ideas are really intriguing and, yes, we want to talk to you because you're talking, at least in our parlance. You're talking about the right things, yeah, and so, heck, yeah, heck, yeah, let us let, yes, let's, let's have a conversation. It's been fantastic.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. And just to underscore a little bit of that, without tuning our own horn, you know, I also read a fun article cause we were, you know, we're going to be doing headlines here sometime this week and I read a LinkedIn article from a guy who really has his finger on the pulse on the data center markets and he's he's kind of making a distinction of the fake data center projects and the real data center projects, and he was, you know, and he makes a whole list of what makes it legit, what what makes it fake. And it's really you can, you can determine this really fast, like, is this a legitimate project or not? And I think that's one of the exciting things that we've got going here is we own the land, we've got the engineering, we've got plans in motion to substantiate what we're doing, and it's a significant plan, but it's still at an incipient enough phase for them to be able to step in and really influence how it designs Massage.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's correct, yes, and so timing is perfect. It's not too soon. A year ago, we probably wouldn't be getting the same Nope, we wouldn't have been far enough down the road. We're several years down the road now, already in Utah and that helps. It does it helps to have our own credibility at at least to par where they can. They can deal with us and we can have intelligent conversations. And and we're not talking concepts, we're talking about know we.
Speaker 1:We know what we're stepping into, which is why we're like okay, help us fix this, because we need your expertise to to help uh overcome this, these obstacles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just felt like that would be an important distinction for our listeners to recognize that we're not. We're not calling Burns McDonald and talking concepts and ideas, and some days we're, we're connecting and engaging these companies and saying these are the projects we've got, this is where we need your expertise. How do we contract that? Let's flush the scope out and go and they're like okay, let's go.
Speaker 1:Let's go. So that's where we are, and you're right timing To your point. Timing is important, I mean. Something you can always keep in mind is that there's a too early, there's a too late and there's a just right, and we asked them at the right time.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So with that all in mind, guys, let's talk about. You know, when you go to Google everyone goes to Google. Now we're going to our different AI queries and you start to research Burns McDonald, you recognize that they're an architecture firm, they're a construction firm, they're an engineer, they're all of these things, and so you've really got to distill down to scope. How do you work with a company of this magnitude? And so I'd like to keep, just for the sake of the listeners and the sake of our company, spotlight on where's it going and keep it focused on the niche scope that we've engaged them for, and that would be power production. So if we just focus on key energy projects, let's start there.
Speaker 1:Let's do it. You want to kick it off? Go ahead, I've got one. I don't know if again we don't talk. Usually, wayne and I are usually doing our own research and then oddly coming up with. Occasionally we overlap, but it's been really good. So the Vistra Moss Landing Energy Storage Facility in Monterey, california, there you go. The company served as the EPC contractor for the Phase 3 expansion, installing battery modules housed within 122 custom-built enclosures contributed to the facility's total energy storage capacity of 750 megawatts. Jeez, not a small, small, not a small project. Wow. So there you go. That'sts Gee. Not a small, small, not a small project. Wow. So there you go. That's awesome. Yes, so there you go, right, close to close. I hear out west here.
Speaker 2:So that was specifically battery storage modules, but nearly a gigawatt of battery storage.
Speaker 1:Nearly a gigawatt. So 122 custom built enclosures Geez To handle it. But I mean you look at that. Nearly a gigawatt. So 122 custom built enclosures Jeez To handle it. But I mean you look at that and you just go okay. So just on a very niche to your point, very niche, very specific to we need to do storage and they did it. Wow, that's fantastic it is.
Speaker 2:It is One of the top projects that comes up. When I dove into power production for Burns Mc Burns, mcdonald built the Pioneer Generation Station Phase 4 up in Williston, north Dakota. This is a 600 megawatt power plant. It's the largest single site electric generation project in 40 years for Basin Electric up in Williston, adding 600 megawatts of capacity, which is critical for meeting growing electric demands in the Bakken region.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's impressive.
Speaker 2:And I believe that that is a natural gas-fired plant, according to the research. Okay, and I believe that they're also using this unique combination of dual-cycle reciprocating engines and gas turbines and gas turbines, which is a common denominator. This is why we're still both talking about this. Yes, because in the last five years, when we talk about technological advancements and we talk about all the possibilities of power production, natural gas is squarely in the center of that. Coal's being decommissioned, nuclear's coming online, but natural gas is squarely in the center of all of this. And then you have renewables on their own kind of island that we've talked ad nauseum don't qualify for baseload power. We're talking about baseload power. Yeah, all right, what do you got next?
Speaker 1:Well, up that, well sort of up. That way, I mean more to the east. But in just keeping with that, not gas, solar. They engineered and constructed. It's the Alliant Energy Solar Program in Wisconsin. They constructed nine utility-scale solar arrays, adding 664 megawatts of solar generation capable of powering approximately 174 000 homes. Wow, so you know, we went from gas to solar. That's fantastic, big, big, big big projects. That's fantastic. That's a. That's a big project. 664 megawatt solar arrays is is a significant. That's you. Yeah, that's a significant. That's huge. Yeah, that's a significant array.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a difference guys. There's a distinction here to be made between commercial well, residential commercial and then utility scale. Yes, those are the tiers of size and capacity. Output capacity when you talk about utility scale, it's got to be like minimum of a couple hundred megawatts in my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, that's significant, and it's significant. So you know, on that footprint is which we talk about a lot on this is energy density, which is, you know, one of the things with solar. I mean, it's always, it's part of the conversation. It's like, in order to do that amount of solar, it takes a lot of land. Yeah, like a lot of land. Yeah, which is interesting. That has its interesting challenges, which is why you know why we talk and why we love to see, like a burns mcdonald, they're experiencing all these, uh, different types of energy, so it's not just one or the other, it's all of the above, absolutely.
Speaker 2:um, anyone who's legitimately dealing in the new age of nuclear deserves a mention, and so we'll talk about it. It's in development. It's the BWXT advanced nuclear reactor in Lynchburg, virginia. This is a 2024 nuclear project. It's the first advanced nuclear microreactor in the US. Right, wow? So we're making history.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't know that was. I didn't know that one was the first Okay.
Speaker 2:It's designed to be safely and rapidly transportable for military and commercial use, so that's really it's not uncommon, especially in the military we're talking about the big ships, the submarines that are, that have nuclear power but not in terms of like on land.
Speaker 1:We thought but that's that's that's being talked about a lot. We see it a lot yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, another big project that comes up is the Aspen Power Station in Saskatchewan. Canada will provide reliable energy to approximately 370,000 homes, enhancing energy security, particularly when renewable generation is insufficient. So Canada, as we know, has done a greatatorium on the renewables to preserve some of the natural habitat, right, which we totally agree with here. Like we've been saying, guys, the pragmatic approach is the right approach, and so it's great to see them providing high density, providing high density natural gas modality in that whole mix, right and guys, there's a lot, a lot, a lot of backpedaling happening right now globally.
Speaker 2:I can't wait to get to our news articles and talk about all the backpedaling going here, but the word of the day on the global energy market is pragmatism. Okay, so burns mcdonald being flexible enough to deliver with pragmatism, yeah, is a big deal.
Speaker 1:It is uh, are they? This is why I thought this was interesting, because this is more from a consulting point of view. Uh, they, in partnership with delta airlines, did the skyway program at lex, so oh, uh, so that was the programs. They were the environmental consultant coordinating compliance with hazardous materials management, oil spill prevention, preparedness, stormwater pollution prevention, environmental oversight, permitting compliance. So really, you'll see, you see the breadth, sort of see a little bit of the breadth of burns mcdonald, like okay, there's there, there's this, but then they're also let's come in in and make sure that the programs you have work. Yeah, I mean, obviously that's a big contract. Dell Airlines, lax is not nothing. I was also noticed and this is in 2024, this year Burns McDonald was recognized as a US best managed company for the third consecutive year. That's cool, highlighting its exceptional management practice and financial performance. So not only doing amazing things in the space and really solving a lot of major problems, but also a well-run organization.
Speaker 2:Let's dive into further into the niche of applicability for Valley Forge Impact. Absolutely, because it's going to be an ongoing topic of conversation in Utah and Wyoming as we roll these projects out, and that is advanced emissions control. Okay, and Burns McDonald is industry leader in advanced emissions control technologies. Okay, they have what are called large frame gas turbines that can achieve nitrogen oxide emissions as low as nine parts per million in simple cycle configurations and when coupled with selective catalytic reduction, scrs technology, those emissions can be further reduced to two parts per million. When we talk about converting some of the projects, we talk about converting from coal to these next-gen gas turbines and engines. We're talking about a 60% carbon emissions reduction from coal to natural gas using these advanced technologies. I think that's significant for everyone to understand.
Speaker 1:It's significant and also to understand when we start talking about some of these engines and I don't know if these are the dual cycles as well they're preparing for the future of maybe hydrogen, so coming next after gas and transitioning to hydrogen when the infrastructure is finally there, hydrogen being if you can get to hydrogen, then you you know, by all accounts, depending upon the type but you're looking at like green hydrogen quote unquote green hydrogen you're getting to zero emissions, that's right, but you already have your infrastructure in place, you already have your pipes run, you already have your, and that's some of the advantage of going this way. Is that it, it is. It's nice to talk about transition, but it truly is a transitional engine and it, like some of these are built for that it's like, okay, it can, it can function as this. And then when hydrogen, when you're able to bring that online, because you're from a business point of view, you've got to invest so much in infrastructure and to get these things there, right, you know, business people say, well, we say well, we got to use them to their, to their life. Yeah, well, if we're also trying to move into into full sustainability, where you're really getting as green as you possibly can. Well, then, they've got to be able to convert over, and that's where that we're seeing advancements in this space in just the last few years, of going from what we call a normal kind of a gas turbine or recip and they're just adding so many features to it.
Speaker 1:It costs more, but the benefit is huge, yeah, and so it's exciting and this goes to that pragmatism If you have to look at what's available, what you can do, what's reasonable and you and I talk ad nauseum on the power needs and the brittleness, and we've got to decentralize power, we have to build more power, and there's a lot of ways to do it the best way is to say, okay, what do we need today? Does it set us up for tomorrow? And if our ultimate goal is to get it as green as possible, because we get it, then how do we do that? But do it in a way that we don't shoot ourselves in the face getting yeah, yeah, you know it's one thing that it's I've and I'll throw up a number that I've I've talked about a few times early on.
Speaker 1:We have currently last numbers. I read again. Maybe it's changed since. Since you know we started the podcast, we have a little under two. Well, it's two petawatts, but 90% of its renewable that's not connected. So they went and built it, yeah, but it's not connected. So great, you built it, but you haven't been able to do anything with it, so you haven't solved the problem.
Speaker 2:And you know, dave, when you're talking about pragmatism, one of my biggest concerns thinking about solar and wind is the life cycle. Yes, how long do these today's solar panels last, and what happens when they need to be replaced? Same as we've talked about the wind turbines, these huge blades and things Like. What's the disposition proposition behind those power production modalities? What I don't like about solar is how much land that takes up. And so what's happening 50 years from now, when solar has improved so much that we don't need to use a thousand acres? It's a much smaller footprint. It's a more efficient panel. What are we doing? Like? How does that transition versus using these big reciprocating engines that can convert? There's no footprint change. It's the same power plant that converts. Same pipeline, yeah, same pipeline.
Speaker 1:Zero emission proposition Right, that's really appealing to me yeah, and you talked about it, and we'll talk about energy density. Yes, the amount of energy density that can come from that is significant, versus needing 1,000 acres Right Now. Granted, you can say, well, sagebrush Okay, yes, maybe, or sagebrush still, and it's good and I get it. I'm not going to knock it Again. As long as you're looking at solar as not the end-all be-all, it's a step. Looking at solar is not the end all be all it's. It's a step. It's a step in the right direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a step towards more efficient panels or more something right, but then what's the next step? Yeah, and I know you got to so just like that, you've got to do what you can do today and you got to move into tomorrow. But but you know, I don't know that. You know the problem, the problems don't necessarily get approached like that all the time. It it's, oh, this is going to solve everything. No, it's not. It's going to solve some things, and you have to be open to the conversation of how does it solve things today and how do we then move it into the future? Yep, to your point.
Speaker 2:Yep. Well, another really interesting thing. When we talk about the Genesee generating station and them repowering this, this is a conversion of coal to gas. Powering this, this is a conversion coal to gas. But they're also using these Mitsubishi gas turbines which are triple pressure heat recovery steam generators. So as the reciprocating engines produce an inordinate amount of heat, they're able to bolt on these heat recovery steam generators that can take that waste heat in and further produce even more power. So power density stands in a very small footprint. That's next-gen stuff right there.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic and you know, coming back, Burns McDonald is at the forefront of making sure they're working with their partners to design and use and utilize all of these different kinds of products in solutions. Yeah, and utilize all of these different kinds of products in solutions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm just going to bring it up because we're talking about hydrogen. Burns McDonnell is supporting really innovative projects to reduce emissions, including a hydrogen blending pilot project. Okay, working with WEC Energy Group and EPRI to test hydrogen as a fuel source in reciprocating internal combustion engine power facilities. Wow, is what we were just talking about. So for the listeners just to be clear and they abbreviate these as RICE engines Okay, reciprocating internal combustion engine RICE engines. That's what we're talking about and that's what we're designing here for Utah and Wyoming. Bless you, bless you, thank you. But but just so we're clear, hydrogen, particularly green hydrogen, is not advanced enough today to be able to push that through our gas pipeline infrastructure, but we believe that at some point in the future it will be. And we have groups like Burns McDonald doing these pilot projects to develop the technology to help us get to that point. Okay, so it just underscores their commitment to sustainability Absolutely, while pragmatically putting in the cleanest technology utilizing fossil fuel today, recognizing that this is going to be something, you know, that's going to be on the energy landscape for the next 50, 80 years, maybe more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, talk about backpedaling. Right, it's it. It's great, see, it's great to see big blue chip companies who don't just? They're not. They're not just buffered about by the wind, they're not just swayed by the UN and some of these climate change advocacy groups. They they are a battleship or a carrier moving down an ocean in the right direction. Very small movement off of what works, but making movement, and that's the pragmatic approach. We're not trying to knee-jerk over this entirely renewable landscape that you understand. That that's a fallacy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to get there is not something you do. I mean, this is a multi-decades kind of thing, which it has been, but you can't solve all of it at once. If you don't look at everything, you can't. I mean, if we just collectively said right now, you know what we're going to, go completely 100%, we wouldn't have power. That's right, that's 100% true. You wouldn't have. I mean, you say, well, no, we would Like, no, you wouldn't. It's an impossibility to solve right now, anytime soon. Yeah, you have to have some of these other energy types be embraced and come online. Great, we want to you some of these other energy types be embraced and come online. Great, we want to.
Speaker 1:You know, let's talk about nuclear. I mean, you've talked about nuclear. Nuclear is, I mean, it's been bashed about, obviously in public perception, but you talk to you, read it, you read enough of it. You talk to the scientists. It's like, no, this is a really, really, really green power and it can produce a lot, and talk about energy density, but in order to get that online in any meaningful way, we're a decade out. Yeah, at least. Yep, I mean, we can't even get a project online and, like you know, it's been six to 10 years, just to get some of these projects just stood up. I mean, and and that's when that's we're talking we talk a lot about how our energy needs are today, Like this is demand right now. From now, the next 10 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have to address these things now, Otherwise we just don't have enough power to do what we want, and that is a problem. Right, so we can take okay, well, we can stop using power. How's that going to go? How's that going to work out for everybody? It's all nice until you can't charge your phone or do your things or turn on your lights at your house, and I know that sounds like dystopian, but it's it's.
Speaker 2:It's not dystopian, it's just it's a reality of how much power is out there and how much is going to be needed. Well, if you actually study the headlines, if you actually study the reality of power outages in the U S only, there are hundreds of thousands of homes out of power at any given day, everywhere. All 50 states are having power outages all the time. We've had three or four in Utah that have affected thousands, tens of thousands of homes in the last month or two, and when I go and I do my research on headlines for the day, when we do you know those episodes, I'm seeing this across the nation. Okay, so it's commonplace. We're just not. Fox News is reporting that every day, power outages.
Speaker 1:It's not crisis in the headlines as yet, not yet, and you know, I think about like very specifically I'll just kind of take a diversion If you think about how many remote workers we have, people who are, you know they're using their computer to dial in or do whatever or be able to function. Just think about the time when you couldn't access Gmail, or when Gmail or maybe one of your SaaS products hasn't worked. Oh yeah, just that disruption. Right Like your workday is done, you can't do it and you might be able to do some things, but you're like I can't do it, maybe I can do some things, but I can't effectively go over. I mean, and that's just taking out one little thing.
Speaker 1:And you know, maybe they had it was a computer issue, maybe they had a power bump. Yeah, you know, maybe one of these, you know one of their cloud facilities experienced something that they couldn't quickly recover from. I mean, in terms of like uptime. They recovered within an hour or two. Yeah, we know what that does to a day. You start stacking enough of those end to end. It wouldn't take a lot to create some significant problems. And just how you go about your day, how you're ready, how you do your work, these are real issues and it's not something that we don't think about because we think, oh no, we're always going to have power.
Speaker 1:This is going to be there we're reaching an inflection point with the grid. We have an older grid. It's breaking a lot more often you see real significant problems in the infrastructure. You don't take anything else, just the infrastructure needs to be updated, otherwise it's going to start breaking. Yeah, live in an older city. Yeah, with old water lines and sewer lines and mains that break. And it's the problem that everybody loves to kick down the road until it breaks Right and floods homes or does something. It's like, oh my gosh, why didn't we? Why didn't we solve this 20 years ago when we had an opportunity? Well, because we love kicking problems down the road. Well, that's where we are with our grid right now. Period, so, not to diverge. But this all comes back to why a company like is out there on the front lines solving these problems for individuals, companies, organizations, governments, you name it 100%.
Speaker 2:And I'm going to bring up a big commercial example here. On top of one of these other prominent projects, the Laurel Generation Station in Montana is a Burns McDonald build-out. They're using these ultra-efficient, low-emission rice units, the internal combustion gas engines, 175 megawatts of natural gas fired rice rice power. The plant features 18 caterpillar rice units that can provide on-demand power with reduced emissions. These units support the integration of renewable energy into the northwestern energy's generation portfolio.
Speaker 2:Now, when we talk about data centers, it's been really fun for me to explore how everyone's powering things and to recognize that many of these hyperscalers, depending on how they lean politically, have very ambitious sustainability goals. Very ambitious goals to be 100% renewable sustainability goals. Very ambitious goals to be 100% renewable, okay. And while that's very altruistic and noble, okay, not so pragmatic. This is why we're seeing amazon run into these walls of zombie facilities and not being able to adequately source power. On the flip side, very exciting to see elon with his colossus computer in memphis xa xai facility. Using what is he using? Internal combustion gas engines. Pragmatism, guys. So Elon, as technologically advanced as anyone on Earth.
Speaker 1:And ushered in our use of electrical vehicles. Yes, I mean for business, but also getting us off the you know, getting us to think about a different way of you know. You know, getting us to think about a different way of you know. I think probably the single, the one person who's made the biggest difference in getting us away from traditional gas combustion, saying you know what. There are other ways to do this, and it doesn't just have to be this, and it can be elegant, it can be good, it can be all the things. Does it have its? Yeah, it has its own issues, undoubtedly, but it's a a move, I think eon would say, at least he said in the past, in the right direction, yeah, yeah, I think that's right. This is, this is an indication that that's right gets us it.
Speaker 1:It gets this solved in a meaningful way and gets us going in the right direction. There are some out there to say, well, that's not fast enough, okay, well then, do you do? Do you want to live without power? Yeah, it becomes down to that, and they say, well, then we don't need as much AI. Well, for all the naysayers on AI and there are a few, and it's a loud bunch, it is here, it's not going away.
Speaker 1:Yes, and there are quickly becoming a lot of benefits that you as an individual are going to start benefiting from, and I'll speak to healthcare. Yeah, we might have a whole class of different drugs coming on the market, because they've been able to, they've been able to super crunch this with AI and come up with combinations of things that no one had ever considered before and do it and model and get this stuff to market faster. That's just on one thing that maybe you have an ailment that a big pharma company, they're not going to spend any money doing because it's only 100,000 people. Well, now, I mean, this is the stuff that AI at least opens up the possibility for, just on a very small space. So AI has yes, it has some challenges and yes, we can. You know, even Elon Elon's, you know he's he's also wrung his hands about AI is going to end us at the same time, but there's also a lot of benefits.
Speaker 1:So you have to again look at the whole, look at as big of a picture as you possibly can. Yeah, it's not just one thing, yeah, it's everything. I think that goes with everything and that's, you know, when you approach problems, to try, try to take into consideration all of the things. When, when you look at something that's a massive challenge and again I'll come back to Burns and McDonald, they are the kind of company that does that yeah, they say, great, all these different ideas. Let's look at the big challenges. Where are we trying to go? How do we get there? And how do we help you get there in a smart, efficient, economical way, to where we can get to some of these goals and not fall on our faces getting there. So, anyway, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:How's that? Soapboxes, I know I love, I love the soapbox, and that that's I mean. That brings us to a final thought on are we the final thought already? The final thought?
Speaker 1:absolutely. We can't be there already, can we? Yes?
Speaker 2:so exciting, so exciting to be working with burns mcdonald and to couple them up with some of these other companies that we've we've brought brought onto the team of consultancy Very exciting. What do you want to give for a takeaway, dave? On Burns McDonnell, we've really covered comprehensively their contributions to sustainability and the future of power generation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're the group you go and you say, as a, as a private developer, they're the group you go to. Or maybe it's a private developer, a university, a big corporation, and you say, look, we want to get from A to Z. We understand that, uh, that's hard and and you know, we know that's a pathway. How do we do it better? How do we do it better? How do we? How are we better? Yeah, you know, if you buy, if you say, okay, look we, we, we're going to engage in sustainability. So, yeah, this is a better way to do things. Is it more expensive, maybe? Okay, burns and McGaugh help us figure out. How do we solve this? How do we solve this? How do we take what we have today and just make it more efficient and better? How do we reduce our footprint right now? How can we make adjustments? This is the kind of group, the kind of company that can go into any project size and say we'll help you get there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because we're committed to it. We're committed to it as well. We will help you get there. Okay, you're Princeton University, you want to do this little project. We will help you move the ball forward and get there in a meaningful way, so that it solves your challenges, and we're going to help connect you to a world of information and intelligence to say here's how we see this going, this is the best way to go. Yeah, that's it, that's who they are.
Speaker 2:That's a phenomenal. Final thought yeah, I echo that exactly, so hope you guys enjoyed this. This has been a great breakdown. We're excited to get them on the show. We got an interview coming up here in the next few weeks so stay tuned.
Speaker 1:Look forward to talking to them Until next time on the Frontier Line. See you next time, Wayne.
