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THE FRONTIER LINE
Hosts Wayne Aston and David Murray explore the critical global pillars of infrastructure development and energy production, from traditional methods to future-forward advancements. The Frontier Line covers the latest industry news, energy innovations, and sustainability trends that are shaping the future. Through expert interviews with industry leaders in renewable energy, utility-scale battery storage, and waste-to-energy technologies, the podcast provides insights into the evolving landscape of energy efficiency and sustainable infrastructure. By focusing on the intersection of innovation and the politics of energy, The Frontier Line highlights transformative ideas and technologies poised to deliver cost-efficient, resilient, and sustainable solutions for global industries.
THE FRONTIER LINE
FERC, Nuclear Power Horizons, SMRs (Small Modular Reactors), Open AI Raises $6.6 Billion, Private Decentralized Power Production
And we're rolling. Okay, let's kick this one off today, dave, with an article from the Register. That sounds good and good morning, good morning to you.
Speaker 2:We're going to jump right into this, ready to go, ready to go.
Speaker 1:This headline? We're covering headlines again today, guys. One of the favorite things here to do AI's power trip will leave energy grids begging for mercy by 2027. Data center demand estimated to inflate by 160% in the next 24 months. That's staggering.
Speaker 2:That's staggering.
Speaker 1:Staggering. I'll just give some of the highlights here, some statistics. So AI-driven data center energy demand could expand 160% over the next two years, leaving 40% of existing facilities operationally constrained by power availability Almost half of the facilities constrained by power. That's an interesting problem. It's a problem Something we heard a little bit about this. According to Gartner, which estimates the energy requirement for BitBarns to run additional AI optimized servers is forecast to hit 500 terawatt hours per year in 2027, which it says is 2.6 times the level seen in 2023. So much Such a big number.
Speaker 1:Gartner goes on to say. The VP analyst here, bob Johnson from Gartner, says the explosive growth of new hyperscale data centers to implement gen ai, general ai, is creating an insatiable demand for power that will exceed the ability of utility providers to expand their capacity fast enough. Well, it's just, it's nothing new. No, it's just new numbers from another authority in the space saying the same things we've been saying the whole time.
Speaker 2:That's just wow, yeah, so the same thing. And I was, I was right, and that goes into something that open AI came out with. Or there was a discussion yesterday and again, this is, I just have it. I read these numbers and they're just staggering. Yeah, so they discussed I don't know if you saw this, we haven't talked about this yet Open AI yesterday this is in a briefing discussed AI data center that could cost $100 billion.
Speaker 2:The idea appears to resemble Stargate, the code name of $100 billion supercomputing data center that OpenAI has discussed with its primary backer, microsoft. Yeah, I didn't see that. Yeah, how do you like that one? So, basically, this would be five times larger than any data center that's currently being conceived. And it's just the fact that here we are, since we even started this podcast, the the numbers have, they've this.
Speaker 2:We're on this trajectory, starship trajectory, um, upwards of like wait a minute, you know 50 megawatts, a hundred megawatts, 250 megawatts, and when we're we've been talking about a gigawatt data centers, and this is just, this just gets, this is just okay. Yeah, just okay. Yeah, that's that's, that's child's play. These are huge. These are huge, huge, huge, huge considerations by the biggest groups, and so this is where we're going.
Speaker 2:And so you re, I read this and go okay, well, how do you solve power? How are they going to tackle the power? And I'm I'm sure it has a nuclear component to it, but nonetheless, this is the conversation where this is where it is. Folks, we are at a point where almost the sky's the limit now with these numbers and it's not slowing down. And I know there are those out there who will probably say, oh, it's too bullish, it's all speculative, there's too much speculation leading this. I think that we are just starting. I don't think you can over-speculate. In a weird sort of way, I don't think we know where this ends up. Actually, I don't think we can possibly conceive of how big this is going to be in the next decade.
Speaker 1:I agree. I agree, the numbers all point there, the markets all point there. I agree, the numbers all point there, the markets all point there. It's interesting because, before we walked into the studio this morning, have these ebbs and flows of production and valuation, like the spot pricing and all of the things that fluctuate with this ebb and flow based on global demand. But I think you're right, I think this could be. If there was ever an anomaly in the market, market ever an exception to commodities as we know them, then ai is probably that anomaly. Yeah, I think of never slowing down like the cat's out of the bag and you can't stuff it back in the bag, right, and it can never shrink back to where it was a year ago, even no, like that's. That's a fascinating realization.
Speaker 2:It is, I mean, and I think that has relationships to lots of conversations, obviously very topical. We again we're post-election here. There's, I mean, I've seen a lot of conversation in the AI space specifically about what is it going to mean, what does the Trump administration mean for AI? And I bring this up because, on one hand, you have AI surging forward can't put the cat back in the bag. You have even a person like Elon, who obviously Trump seems to be leaning on, who's expressed concern about AI. I could argue, you know, I could wonder if that's out of competitive nature, meaning like he doesn't want the other AIs. I don't know, he was original, he was originally in open AI.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so you know and, and then that was, you know that was, that was a bit of a fallout, and so you wonder if that, or if he had. I mean, he seems to be genuine in his concerns about AI and so will those concerns, how will those be dealt with? And will that put the reins on AI? I don't see it happening. I think there are groups out there that want to say, okay, let's put up some guardrails and there have been. I mean, there's a federal agency created We'll see if that remains to kind of talk about privacy and this and that and protecting people and like all these things. Like what does it mean? But there are those who are far more bullish in saying we just need to keep pushing forward and let the market work itself out. We're not going to see, absent a concerted effort, maybe nationally and internationally, to slow down AI or put again major guardrails, absent that this is just going to continue on. And we're going to just continue to see this demand for power and bigger data centers and more and more and more and more, which I'll bring up because we talked about nuclear and here, okay, here's, it's okay, nuclear probably a solution. Yeah Well, today, uh, ferc announced they rejected an intern interconnection proposal for nuclear power data center project.
Speaker 2:So this comes back to and I think it's all tied together what are we going to what? What kind of regulatory environment are we going to be in in the next year regarding all of this environment? Are we going to be in in the next year regarding all of this? Yeah, right, yeah, from you know, what are we going to do on the nuclear side? Are we, you know, are we going to push forward? Um, interestingly, um, you know, uh, I think there was an agreement yesterday or two days ago. The biden administration they it was in, I was somewhere else in the world where they announced and it this might be an indication, because I think it's in line with where Trump was probably going to go announced that they want to see us double or triple our capacity of nuclear in the United States, which was the first time I've seen that publicly kind of announced in that big of a number. And I know, again, I think, to nuclear.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And so what's going to and what's? You know and I was reading some of the stuff and it seems this seems to be something that Democrats and Republicans are kind of circling around and saying, yeah, we, both, we, we need to solve this like in for different reasons, but they're there. I think we're going to see a lot, for example, so FERC rejecting. We're going to see a lot of pressure come to bear of like, okay, are we doing this smartly? Are we doing bad? Do we need less regulation restriction? What does that look like? And I mean, here you have we're talking about nuclear, the need for nuclear, and they come in in saying, okay, that's great, but no, that's great.
Speaker 2:You've hit here, but we have these concerns. Someone's got to give. Yeah, Don't you think? I mean I, I A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:It's another case for decentralization. And so if we want to play the game of decentralization, then it's SMRs. You know, it's these small micro reactors in the nuclear space that could be deployed effectively. You know, and we've heard different footprints 70 by 70, storage container sized SMRs, I mean as that technology comes up and it will come online. Yes, mark, our words, smrs are coming. Oh yeah, because decentralized power is coming. Decentralized power. Every single day we look at a new headline like that, where an interconnection or a regulatory permitting, bureaucratic red tape, the whole laundry list of impediments, creates friction in the process, creates an impediment to growth and expansion in the AI space, which is not going to be fully contained. It's like trying to put your fingers in the dam. That's just cracks and you plug one crack and a new one opens. That's what I see happening, which will really accelerate this whole decentralization and private, you know, private decentralization taking a greater role on the forefront of this, from private capital to private ownership and operation in coordination with municipalities and more public stakeholders. I think it's exciting.
Speaker 2:I do, I you know it's troublesome and exciting it is.
Speaker 2:I mean, and I, I on one, you know, there's part of my brain that says you know there the reason you have a special when you're dealing with nuclear regulation in places, because you know, in our lifetimes we bad shit happen, yeah, especially nuclear. However, there's a big asterisk. New technologies have developed considerably, and so the question is is are the regulations that employ that are in place now currently? Are they dealing with older forms of uh modalities in nuclear? And I? This is where I'm, I'm not by and large.
Speaker 1:Yes, probably would be my guess we look at palisades and three mile island, of these big ones that they're talking about resuscitating, that's old, yeah, that's all attack, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think you're gonna see a. Maybe it won't be a fine-tooth comb, maybe it'll be more of a, you know, a big broom. Go through these things and say, okay, do what do we need, what do we not need? What's, what's restricting Us being able to, you know, endorse, endorse these, embrace, these Are these you know, minutiae that we don't need to worry about. I mean, again, I'm, you know.
Speaker 2:Coming back to the article I just referenced, you know this, the takeaway from this, they say although decided primarily on procedural grounds, the FERC the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, the FERC, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission decision points to increase regulatory scrutiny on large co-located energy users as policymakers adapt to rapid demand growth from data centers driven by AI development.
Speaker 2:Ferc's decision underscores the importance of meeting procedural standards when deviating from pro forma interconnection agreements. I think I'm translating right when that says when you're doing interconnection agreements that aren't standard and this might be where you're getting into more private, public kinds of things they don't know how to deal with that, and so this is not falling down on the grounds of safety, it's falling down on the grounds of like, well, it doesn't go through the right procedure because we don't know how to handle this, and I think everybody out there listening has run into that in their own lives and business is like, well, yeah, but this is the situation, yeah, yeah, but, but, but we have rules, we have this thing, you have to check this box. And he's like, yeah, but that's, that's dumb, but we don't, we don't need to do that, or it is, you know. I'm just saying I mean, we, we can all where a lot of this might be just noise, that doesn't need to be there, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, it is interesting, dave, because when we talk about law as we know it, when we talk about legislation, regulation as we know it, it's fundamentally premised on historical data set. It's fundamentally premised on historical data set. It doesn't contemplate part and parcel for something that's never been done before, and that's what we're dealing with with AI. The whole thing is something we've never done before. Every single headline is something we've never seen before. The next article I was telling you about before we walked in here was this one from Tech Crunch about OpenAI, and I'll just share this with the listeners here, to segue right in because it's relevant.
Speaker 1:This whole it's never been done before conversation is the conversation of the day. Openai raises 6.6 billion and is now valued at 157 billion. What's interesting about that is is that chat GPT maker, open AI. Closing that round signifies the largest VC round of all time. Okay, so, so it's a staggering. It's staggering and you know. You look at the list of of of entities involved in this. Thrive is listed, as you know, putting in 1.3 billion with an with an exclusive option to invest up to another billion at the same valuation. Microsoft, nvidia, softbank, coachella, ventures, altamir, capital, fidelity and MGX are also participating in that fundraising. Okay, so, when the capital markets are able to underwrite and say, okay, yes, we're doing something that's never been done before, typically, capital markets will lead commodities and other markets, and so that's where I'm saying it's kind of like the writing on the wall is the way I see it, and that is. And regulation might be the last thing to be adjusted, but regulation must adjust to accommodate the never-been-done-before scenarios that are now on the doorstep Impending.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, I guess, to underscore this. And there's a really good article and I can actually read part of this article if we're good with it, yeah, article and I I can actually read part of this article if we're good with it yeah talking about and it's a very more in-depth article about our nuclear power and smrs the solution to data center woes, energy awesome. So they you know, they this is uh out of um, uh, it's called dcd, uh, sustainability in action um, written by zachary skidmore, but I I think it's interesting and I think part of it. He underestimates actually the power needs, but nonetheless, I think this covers a lot of what we're talking about here. It underlies the whole thing of like, why is this an issue? So the energy demand for data centers is expected to surge over the next five years exactly everything we've been talking about, with US consumption alone likely to rise from 17 gigawatts in 2022 to 35 gigawatts by 2030. I think that's going to go higher. I do, too. Ai-specific data centers are due to be the primary driver of this growth, each requiring upwards of 80 megawatts of power capacity. That's again, I think he's underestimating where this actually is, but he covers the new why?
Speaker 2:Nuclear power as a result, data center operators are increasingly exploring the possibility of new energy sources, with nuclear energy emerging as a potential solution. Why nuclear power? Data center firms have continuously invested in low carbon energy over recent years. Amazon Web Services has been the largest corporate purchaser of renewable energy globally since 2020, while the likes of Microsoft, google and Meta have all invested in gigawatts of renewable power here in Utah. We know that down in the geothermal is I think that's been. It was publicly announced a while ago. Is that part of their power is going to be going to Google, I believe.
Speaker 2:However, renewable energy is often intermittent and dependent on location, making its viability as the primary power source for data centers questionable. Nuclear power has emerged as a potential solution to these challenges, offering a consistent, reliable power source that is not reliant on specific geographical placement to secure power. Specific geographical placement to secure power. James Walker, ceo of microreactor company Nano Nuclear, says data centers are becoming increasingly energy hungry and can't keep relying solely on the grid. Walker says they need to generate their own power. However, many zero-carbon energy systems are location-dependent, leaving nuclear energy a viable option. He adds, even if they were able to use coal or gas plants, those are also co-location or also location dependent Nuclear power is the best solution because it isn't tied to specific locations and provides the most consistent energy output. Yeah, I mean, this is all well done, making perfect sense, again, underlying everything we're talking about. This reliability has already pushed the hyperscalers towards nuclear solutions.
Speaker 2:In March 2024, aws signed an agreement with talent energy to acquire 960 megawatts. A 960 megawatt data center powered by the Susquehanna nuclear power plant in Pennsylvania demonstrated the industry's growing confidence in nuclear power and, as an Amazon spokesperson commenting on the deal said that its intention was to supplement our wind and solar energy projects, which depend on weather conditions to generate energy. Our agreement with talent energy for carbon free energy is one project in that effort. The hyperscalers plans to grow the size of the campus suffered a blow earlier this month when an interconnection request this is what I should just just reference yeah, uh, I think they had more information on it, which is why I just came up Uh, an additional 180 megawatts of power dedicated to the site was rejected by FERC. Energy companies had complained that the proposal unfairly benefited both AWS and talent. So now, now we have, you know, all of all the utility Collected interest Elsewhere in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2:Microsoft revealed in September that it was backing the revival of the dormant three mile Island, which we've talked about on this on the show nuclear plant, signing a PPA, which we'll see. And that PPA, for anybody who doesn't know, is a power purchase agreement, which we'll see. It take the full 837 megawatt output of the facility to power its data centers in the state as well as chicago, virginia and ohio. This renewed interest has led traditional power producers across the us to look to extend the life of or restart their nuclear assets. Firms such as vistra announced in their q3 earnings that interest from the data center sector in acquiring nuclear power is increasing, demonstrating the demonstrating this growing interest. In addition, nextera CEO John Ketchum reported that the US utility is contemplating restarting the Duane Arnold nuclear plant in Iowa thanks to strong interest from data centers. Quote given all of the demand that we're seeing from data centers and the compression of supply and availability and available sites ready to go, it's creating even more of a premium on other industries outside of the data centers to try and lock up low-cost renewable generation, said Ketchum. And I mean we'll all go on and on.
Speaker 2:This is a lengthy, lengthy article, but I'll stop there because I think that kind of gives us. It goes into depth about all of the nuclear projects, all of the things that have been talked about that we again we've talked about on the show, specifically Just talking about why now, why this and why you have utilities who have reactors that have been online and taken offline, trying to get them back online. And here we are. This is the conversation we're in, and SMRs, the small modular reactors, are going to figure hugely into this. Because if you have a SMR that can put out a mega, one megawatt or maybe one to five or one to ten, and you can put those on a site and it's not location dependent.
Speaker 2:You can start putting data centers, kind of wherever I mean not wherever you want, because then you still have to deal with fiber, you still have to deal with a workforce, you still do all these, some of these other things, but it makes it a lot more doable and, as we've talked about, it gets it. It's not relying on the grid, it's we know we're going to use this power and if we have excess power we'll push it back to the grid. Yeah, um, if we can do that, that's fantastic. Or maybe benefit the local community or other companies that want to come in and also do things, maybe manufacture and do whatever and use them. But that's where, that's how it's changing the dynamic and kind of the look of our. It's going to change our country and how we deal with power.
Speaker 1:I got an interesting question for you, as you're reading that, I think you know more about this than I will, admittedly. So from a commodities perspective, mining perspective plutonium, uranium, thorium, other nuclear enhanced minerals you know, nuclear enhanced minerals Do you feel like we're getting ourselves quickly into a scenario that we're dealing with lithium and batteries and kind of new impediments to mining? How fast can that be produced and sourced? That's a good question.
Speaker 2:I've read some of the fuel types on some of the you know, some of this SMR. I don't know them well enough to be able to say, okay, these are the things, but it would stand to reason that this is going to start a you know as, maybe these SMRs and come on more online. It's going to create a demand for resources. What I know and what I've read is what's interesting is like, even on the battery storage side they've tried, like even some of the MIT projects I've read about, they've gone into them, going okay, we need to create something that we have in abundance, because that doesn't serve us well. We know that historically and we also know it causes problems. But we're talking about nuclear. So you know they're they're kind of limited as far as I know, and so that is going to probably do that. And then that's where, again, this all comes back to a geopolitical conversation about who has those resources. Is it Russia, is it China, north America? Where are those going to come from? How are we going to source those?
Speaker 1:Procurement issues. Front end also makes me think of the backend. Yeah, disposition, you know, after it serves its life cycle, yes, and nuclear waste and all of those whole other sector of disposition, that gets really interesting.
Speaker 2:Well, I think you know. I think this is a good case where we should. You know, as we're talking, I will go to the Oracle. Yeah, either per. I think this is a good case where we should. As we're talking, I will go to the Oracle either Perplexity or Chad or one of them, and I want to see what it comes up with and talks about, Because I think it's a really good question and I don't know in detail enough to answer it where I think it's worth exploring. So, yeah, you should talk about it. I'm going to give it a whip here. I'm going to say what fuel types are we dealing with?
Speaker 1:And how do we address disposition? Are there projections for these enriched minerals for nuclear power production? I mean that's going to come into the legislative conversation fast.
Speaker 2:I believe so too. Let's see. Let's see what it comes back with. So you ready? Yeah, I just love AI. So I asked about SMRrs and then how disposition is handled. So fuel types for the new smrs there are six of them, at least that it found it was okay. Low enriched uranium leu oxide fuel. Many smrs, especially those based on light water reactor technology, use traditional UO2 fuel enriched up to 5% uranium-235. High assay low enriched uranium HLAEU it's an acronym. This is uranium enriched between 5% and 20% uranium-235. It's becoming increasingly important for advanced reactor designs, including many SMRs. Mixed oxide fuel Some SMR designs may use they're calling it a MOX fuel which contains plutonium mixed with uranium. Metallic uranium alloys. Some fast neutron SMRs, like the ARC-100, use metallic uranium alloys, for example uranium zirconium, as fuel.
Speaker 1:I wonder if that's the Westinghouse unit that was in the papers here a few weeks ago, I think.
Speaker 2:So I think that might be it TRISO fuel T-R-I-S-O high-temperature gas-cooled reactors. They use TRISO particle fuel which consists of uranium dioxide or uranium oxycarbide kernels coated with carbon and silicon carbide layers. And then one that we've heard a little bit out here went out on the West is molten salt salt fuel. Yeah, some SMR designs, particularly molten salt reactors, use fuel dissolved or dispersed in molten salt. So those are the six fuels we're dealing with.
Speaker 2:So, to your point, if we go in and we look at uranium and plutonium and zirconium and that's who has those things which I know there's been some talk out again out west Utah being one of the places where we mine- yeah, one of the only uranium mills in the nation actually, and you, because you spent a lot of time at Moab, because it was all down there, you know a little bit about that, probably a lot more than I do about the pros and cons and what happened down in that time, but you could probably speak to that Dealing with disposition. So this is what and, by the way, I use perplexity for anybody checking because I like perplexity, because it will actually point us to sources and you can go and look. Recycling Some countries, like France, adopt a closed cycle approach where spent fuel is processed and recycled. This recovers about 90% of reusable materials, 95% reprocessed uranium and 1% plutonium. Waste reduction the H-A-L-E-U fuel allows for higher burn-up, which can reduce the volume of nuclear waste produced.
Speaker 2:Extended fuel cycles Many SMR designs aim for longer refueling intervals, some up to three to seven years or even longer, which reduces the frequency of spent fuel handling. Advanced fuel cycles Some SMR designs, particularly those using thorium or fast neutron reactors, aim to reduce long-lived actinides in the waste stream. On-site storage Many SMR designs incorporate features for on-site storage or spent fuel for the lifetime of the plant, reducing transportation needs. That's interesting. Yes, it is. Research into new disposal methods Ongoing research is looking to advance disposal methods for spent SMR fuel, including deep borehole disposal for smaller fuel assemblies. And then to a favorite topic of ours regulatory adaptation. As SMRs introduce new fuel types and designs, regulatory frameworks are being adapted to address the unique aspects of SMR fuel disposition. It's important, and then it says final note it's important to note the disposition strategies for SMR fuel are still evolving and solutions may vary depending upon the specific uh reactor design and national policies regarding nuclear waste management that's where we are.
Speaker 1:That's now we know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, more doing things that have never been done before what you said about seven minutes ago, which is this is new territory, it's the frontier, yeah. Um, and get our, get our, get our plug in for territory. It's the frontier, yeah, and get our, get our, get our plug in for our show it's the frontier, it's the frontier line, yeah, this truly is. This is. This is infrastructure that hasn't been contemplated or done yet. It's taking everything we've learned in over the last however many decades and it's saying, okay, we need to solve bigger, these massive problems. How do we do it? And there are private, there's the private sector, public sector, there are aligned interests, there are competing interests, but everybody's talking about this and everybody knows we need to solve it. I don't think we all know, I don't think any one person, any one group knows how we're going to get there, but that we need to get there. We know we need to get there, we need to, we know we need to get there. We just don't know what, what path it's going to take.
Speaker 1:Well, there's a really interesting distinction. That comes to mind too, because you know, you bring up Moab and what I know of Moab historically and and Charlie Steen, the old, you know geologist from Texas who moved his family to Moab, utah, because he thought he could find enriched uranium, which he ultimately did find, which he did find, yeah, contextually speaking, the circumstance around that was assets in the war complex, the industrial war complex. So developing these nuclear warheads, in my mind that's not a the quantity of that is not a huge, huge ongoing thing. It's like if you have a few dozen nuclear warheads you could do anything, you could destroy the whole planet with that right. So and I'm not saying that's actually what it would take to destroy the whole planet, but to destroy major portions of a continent doesn't take that much in a nuclear warhead. And so I see contrast then small amounts, now massive amounts, because this whole power generation thing seems so off the rails, expanding and the pace it's expanding at. It's an exciting different proposition. It's a totally different proposition than what we're dealing with in the 80s and our technology advancements according to that and what we know about underscores that, a variety of minerals or a variety of different tech coming into these SMRs.
Speaker 1:I think these SMRs are going to end up existing everywhere. I do too On planet Earth. All countries, most cities going to end up existing everywhere. I do too on planet earth.
Speaker 2:I think that all countries, most cities, you know, yeah, and I you know, it might become one of those where it's standard and and it's going to be interesting, I think ultimately where, at least it seems like in the last again, things will change. But the last 40 or 50 years this becomes a pr public relations kind of a thing where you have, you know, perhaps science and industry on one side saying, no, these things are safe. And then you have people saying, well, science said it was safe 40 years ago and look what happened. And you could also argue like, yeah, but it happened and it happens infrequently. The scientist will typically say, yes, but it's still incredibly safe. Yeah, um, this is not to make the comparison, but I'm going to. You know, it's like flying, it is. It is very much like that.
Speaker 2:There are plenty of people who have real fears about flying. These are founded fears, right? Um, the is? Is it still the safest mode of travel? Yes, does that mean you're not going to experience severe turbulence and might have those really scary moments? No, but are you going to die? Chances are you. You know, driving from, you know home to work, you're going to be more likely to die in in some, some way. So it's a question of what are? What are you? What should you really be afraid about? I think generally speaking society, at least in america, in most places is still very concerned about nuclear I mean I I, I think it, I think it has no relevance on politics or anything else.
Speaker 2:I think people are just unwary. They're a little bit wary of politicians saying oh, no, it's fine. Yeah, business is saying no, it's fine, scientists saying it's fine, and I think it's something that is going to have to be overcome and I'm hoping that SMRs are that kind of gets us over the hump, because they're not. They're not like we would imagine, they're not like a Chernobyl or Fukushima or or through my island. These are smaller and even if there was a catastrophic accident, the amount of catastrophe is just not even in the same ballpark. Plus, there's 50 years of technology, of safety technology. Now that has come along with this, so that it just they've got all kinds of preventions that just didn't exist before, yeah, and so what was rare before is even more rare now, like by quite a factor, and so but I think they, I think you know the, the, the, the obstacle, the biggest obstacle, is going to be the people, yeah, and and ultimately, you know, governments have to make a decision, because right now that's also part of the regulatory processes that you've got to permit and do all these things You've got to get, you've got to get feedback from community, and if communities don't want something, typically they side with the communities. Communities don't want something, typically they side with the communities. This would have to be a case of where both either state governments or federal government comes in and says, well, we don't care. Ultimately, yeah, okay, we understand your concerns, but we've got to do this. That's what I'm saying. I just I think it's going to be interesting going forward and ultimately, this is a public relations thing of like they've got to spend time educating the public about why this is better and why it works and why this is going to be safe and why, ultimately, it benefits all of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, it gets us to a point to where, if you're on and if you are that person who wants the greenest of green energy, this is green. Yeah, it doesn't really get much greener. You can say, well, water usage Well, even some of these new models don't have. It's not even using the kind of water, or even water at all in some of those cases to cool. So you're not dealing with the same kinds of environmental impacts. You're actually dealing with a very low impact at all.
Speaker 2:You could argue mining and then disposition could be those things. But if you can deal with those things, it's a really really, really, really safe and, ultimately, green energy. So it should be something that people who are incredibly green want to support on the up. So I mean, so you're going to bring that group across, then maybe the group who does absolutely I'm not going to trust anything, whatever that might be. Or you know, if there's another site, even if there's another side, to which I don't know if it's a two-sided thing or three-sided thing, you're, we will get to a point where you can. I think you can bring in some of these voices that have been very against this and get them to a point of like, okay, we can get 80% or 70% of the people to agree. This is probably a good thing. Yeah, yeah, I think that's what's going to be coming.
Speaker 1:Well, I think also and totally opinion, and I don't know anything about anything, so my opinion doesn't matter. That was just an opinion on my part. But I'm anything about anything, so my opinion doesn't. That was just an opinion on my part. I'm on it, but I'm going to share it because I think it's all really actually relevant. I appreciate what you're sharing from. From my perspective, if we're trying to make predictions about nuclear power a hundred years from now, okay, first of all, musk is already talking about colonizing mars within the next five to ten years. I mean, we've already got these, these spacex missions happening. Okay, what happens between 2024 and 100 years from now? Probably nuclear might be the coal of of maybe that year. I mean maybe zero point energy we have figured out in a hundred years from now.
Speaker 2:So so we, we embrace maybe a little bit of Tesla, not Tesla Elon Musk, nikola, nikola.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I do believe that there are technologies that still have not been realized, that we're going to see, and nuclear just represents meeting a demand today that forces us to start embracing and really innovating. I think that's one of the gifts of AI forcing some innovation, because up until AI, we haven't had to innovate on the grid or our coal plants for 100 years, like this is all old stuff, guys, and we've been able to scale our power needs according to that Traditional means of land development, growth, population growth. This is a different animal, and so I think that's exciting. I think the demand that pushes the innovation pushes us in that direction of uncovering and discovering these new potential power production modalities that no one's talking about right now. So that's cool. I love that idea.
Speaker 2:I love that, and you made me think of something of this, intentionally, unintentionally, during COVID is that we we were already seeing a mobile workforce or a a workforce that was you know, that was willing to relocate or always be on the move, or you didn't. Obviously you didn't need to be in an office. Some of those types of things kind of got off the ground, got kickstarted because of COVID. Now, obviously, some companies have gone back to. You got to be in the office as opposed to being a remote worker. But there have been others, nvidia being one of them. Actually, he's very, very remote. I think they're almost not minus their manufacturing. I think, if I remember correctly, they're one of the few and they're the most valued company on earth right now. Yeah, so uh, they're showing that it can be done and it it works different for every company. I know it's.
Speaker 2:But what happens when you say, when you bring it up, you know there were traditional ways of kind of how cities grew. Yeah, well, now what if I don't want to live in a city, I want to live out in the country, but I still want to be able to participate in some of these, you know, in in the new economy, I want to be able to live online because I'm you know, I'm talented. I don't, but I don't have to be in an office, right, what does that do to? How does it change the complexion of just how we do things? And part of that has been well, I want to move out there. But then it's utilities, it's this it doesn't have, it has restrictions, it's not growing. Some of that starts to change. Oh, yeah, as you. And then, as you see, you know developers who are trying to move some of the technology into some of these more rural areas, both to take advantage of a really talented workforce. Actually that can actually, you know, go from one industry another and say, yes, can you take a rural workforce and move them from maybe what they're doing into maybe like a data center? Absolutely, a hundred percent. That's my experience of everybody in rural America so far is that these are very, very proficient people. They've learned to do it, very adaptable and want to work hard and just, you know, you know these are the salt of the earth people and they will and they and they just need the opportunity. And so, if it's coming with technology, it's been this, all know, you know it takes specialty. Yeah, you can, I think you could train somebody, and I think you're just going to see the complexion of of how communities are changed because of this.
Speaker 2:I mean it could actually have that kind of an impact to where we become a more remote. Maybe we get away from big cities and we say I want to live somewhere where I don't need to be around 10,000 or a hundred thousand people. Are there values? Are there great things living in a big city? Sure, absolutely, I mean. But are there? Are there wonderful things about living in? You know, I mean, but are there? Are there wonderful things about living in, you know, staying and spending some time in smaller towns? Hell, yeah, absolutely, yeah, you know, I think anybody who's grown up out west and not to knock anybody from from the East Coast, but out west, especially in some of these, you know, like a Salt Lake City that was, you know, when I was younger, was smaller and we remember farmlands and pastures and being able to go and we've seen it evolve into a more metropolitan area.
Speaker 2:There's part of me that misses that. Yeah, right, we've got to, we've got we, we, you know, in my lifetime I got to experience both, yeah, and, and I think you see, you know, see a lot of people going. I just want to get in six and it doesn't matter, I want to get away from. I think we're gonna see more of that. I mean just, I think people want to. They want that, you know, and I think some of this technology actually gets us. It's going to push infrastructure the way we do infrastructure, the way our cities naturally kind of organize, like it's going to challenge some of those, as you said, those modalities for how we do things and it all all comes back to this the digitization of currency, the, the mobilization of access and networking, Starlink.
Speaker 1:I mean you put that in your backpack and go anywhere on the on earth and you're connected. Yeah, those are the things, those are the pieces of infrastructure that make that possible.
Speaker 2:Right and, trust me, I've imagined it. I'm like you know trailer mountains, Starlink. Yeah, I love seeing you in person, Wayne, but just as effective, just as effective on an island.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's right. No, I'll see online and we'll do our. You know I'm going to, I'm going to be able to step out the door and step into nature, and you know, but I'm with you. I'm with you on that and we both can. That's right. But that changes. It changes the ability to do those things, and Starlink is a great example of that. If you have a Starlink, you can go wherever you need to be, yeah, and you can continue to do work. As we know, you and I have done some traveling into some of these rural areas today. Yeah, they don't have great internet service. Yeah, they don't have great internet service. They don't. And it's still like cell service is still shoddy. Some of those infrastructure items still have to come along, yeah, and you realize how constrained, like if you are trying to do work in a small town, like it's almost impossible, yeah, so you see the obstacle to trying to participate into this larger market when you can't participate.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, again, all this technology is going to fuel some of that ability to be able to still live in rural America. And then, you know, work in a very modern way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a great final thought Utopian America, utopian, living Utopian. I like it. Let's do it. Yeah, thanks for listening in, guys. We hope you join us for the next episode. Thanks everyone, until next time.
