THE FRONTIER LINE

President Trump Re-Elected, Media Overhaul and the Correlation with Traditional Utilities, PJM Resistance to Grid Expansion

• Wayne M. Aston & David P. Murray • Season 1 • Episode 28

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Speaker 1:

Good morning, dave Morning, feeling good today, excited to dive in here, first episode post-election Post-election yeah, Whenever we drop this.

Speaker 2:

yeah, this is so. We're living in that post-era now, so whatever we say from here on out, post.

Speaker 1:

Yes, it's a good distinction because I do believe, from everything I can see so far sweeping, sweeping revisions, legislatively sweeping changes in the energy space, hopefully sweeping changes that support you know what I think is happening. I think that I think it's. I think, with Elon involved, I'm really hopeful and optimistic that we will see positive adjustments legislatively to support these initiatives.

Speaker 2:

It's going to be interesting, and I think you bring up a really good name in Elon. Elon, I believe and it's interesting to me because I don't know is a bit of a wild card, because on one hand, especially in the AI space, he said he's been the one saying we need to be careful and he supported legislation in california. Uh, on the other hand, um, it's, you know, I think it's full steam ahead in some of these sectors and so I think it's going to be really interesting to see where he comes down on this. Yeah, um, I'm just curious. I'm kind of curious, but he will be. Uh, what he will be is he's obviously with grok, his own ai and everything else, and obviously who he is. He is very aware of the space. I'm just curious to see what all happens with it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think everybody, I'm so excited, I can't wait. I can't wait to see what happens. I think my sense of it is because what we do know about el is is he, he, he, he's an execution specialist, he's a master of execution and and what I love about that and what I love about an entrepreneurial flavor in the, in the cabinet, now in the administration generally, generally speaking, entrepreneurial kind of weighted, uh, new, you know, new, new folks joining this administration and being led by Elon. In many ways, I think the implementation phase will be swift. I don't see this rolling around for years on end. I think there's going to be things happening and that's what I'm excited to see.

Speaker 2:

He obviously doesn't function like that when they bringing their uh, their GPUs online and doing it in record time, like not even record, I mean, it was record time, but it was mind boggling how fast they got that up and going. Um, I think that's his sense of things. It's not a we're going to wait and see over, you know, over years, and so he's going to be pushing from that, you're right. Right, I mean, he's going to be pushing from that point of view of, like, we've got to get this done and what kinds of this is where I think the regulation thing comes into play, like, what are we, what's impeding that and what needs to happen and how do we need to, how do we need to streamline processes in order to do the things that that I think a lot in the industry obviously want to do right now?

Speaker 1:

You know one thing, from a political perspective, while we're on this new kind of regime change, that was exciting for me to take part in I imagine you did as well but to be a part of X and to watch the wave of podcast power over the airwaves kind of eclipse mainstream media in how people were actually getting information accurate information, I think, you know, based on the rumors, based on the you know what's out there blowing on the wind.

Speaker 1:

If we continue to see widespread transition away from mainstream media or correction in mainstream media in favor of podcasts like this, in favor of platforms that are the uncensored way, then we, the people, have much more influence and I think that's a really important thing.

Speaker 1:

When we're talking about the energy conversation, energy security, energy reliability, modernization, spending, capitalization, all of these things I think that more people, a truer influence of the people versus some of these legislators that have been selected, is going to bring clarity and it's going to bring precision to the energy markets for this decentralized, this decentralized kind of way of thinking, right, Because I think the communities are going to be able to recognize they have a vote, they have a voice in this. How do I want my community to look? Local leaders. I think if they embrace the change and start rolling into this change could really have a lot, a much higher impact on what happens in their backyards positively, to bring new energy, to bring cleaner energy, to bring, you know, modernization and hardening of grids in these communities that need it the most, that have been overlooked.

Speaker 2:

There is perhaps a comparison in what you just said that I hadn't actually thought of before. There is perhaps a comparison in what you just said that I hadn't actually thought of before. But if you look at utilities as mainstream media yeah Right, controlling the narrative you know their own ideas of what they want to do and how it needs to go and you look at, you know, you look at mainstream media and you look at what's happened with podcasting over the last decade, really, mm-hmm and where and you and I've talked about this a little bit of where it wasn't technologically possible to reach so many people two decades ago, yeah, unless you want to spend a lot of money, hundred percent, unless you wanted to, you know, establish broadcast towers and all kinds of things. The you know, over the the top, the internet is allowed Joe Rogan's, the world and lots of independent people to come in and build the following in a weird sort of way, kind of like AM radio, kind of had for a while and I think still does in parts, but not really. But it's the modern, it's that modern.

Speaker 2:

We're going to write to the people. We're going to write to the people, we're going to talk to them and I think if utilities aren't careful which I think they're going to be utilities they're going to do what they do. You're going to see the same thing happen in a micro kind of a way, where you're going to have localized decisions. So, in a weird sort of comparison, you're going to have lots of these groups saying I'm not waiting for you to help me solve my power problems. Yeah, we're going to go.

Speaker 2:

You're going to have entrepreneurs and businesses and funds and everybody else going. We're going to go build our own. And oh, by the way, while we're doing this, we're going to work with a local community to support them and do this and decentralize power production and make power production maybe more meaningful in the areas it's in. And then also, probably, you know, while doing that, one of the solves, instead of transferring power over long distances and losing so much power, there's an efficiency that comes with producing power in, you know, and not having to trans locally micro grids, right?

Speaker 1:

So I think specific, I think in a weird sort of way.

Speaker 2:

You know there's a lesson, you know that utilities can take from mainstream media in a weird sort of way of like, you know, if you're not, if you're not paying attention, you and you're not reactive and you're not listening and you're not maybe doing what you are supposed to be doing, yeah, and I just get a quote, unquote supposed to be doing, I don't sure. Um, then, then then things can happen and the market's going to shift underneath your feet and I think that's what's happened and I mean it, it, it, in podcasting especially, is there is a power there now that you have to uh pay attention to. And I mean I, you know, I go back to, you know, uh, was it uh Clinton on Arsenio Hall when he played the saxophone? Oh yeah, that was a definitive moment for a would-be president to come on a show that no one really expected and to play the saxophone, and that was sort of like this oh my gosh, we need to play in this space.

Speaker 2:

We're no longer going to just rest on our laurels and say, oh, we'll take our 60 Minutes interviews or these interviews or whatever. We're going to have to take advantage of the media as it is right now the talk shows, to take advantage of the media, as it is right now the talk shows, and so you saw a lot more of that, and it's been that way for now, you know, since the, since the 90s anyway. This we're we're right now in an evolution and now we we looking back. Yeah, I mean, I I think he made some very astute decisions. I read an article where baron had actually, uh, advised him. I don't know if you read that too.

Speaker 1:

Oh, um, oh, about the podcast, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And said hey, you know, dad, this is the it was as a report. You should consider going on these. They have, you know, they have a lot of pole and they have a lot of things, and so I think that was a very smart, very savvy move, move.

Speaker 1:

So I agree, and I think we. I think we may have touched on this a month or two ago, but but I think the reason why this is the case is because the public favors authenticity. There's authenticity, authenticity that comes out of as a natural by-product on a show like this or a Joe Rogan, you know three hour interview with Trump humanizing some of these issues, and not just Trump, not just politically speaking, but everybody, everyone that is taking part in this new form of you know, putting the information out there. It's more authentic and I think people value that. I think that's why we're seeing this huge transition that also translates to these power companies absolutely authenticity, transparency, what's really best for the community and and and are they really now and so so you know this brings. In fact, I've got a handful of articles okay, okay in front of me, and this because of the direction of where we're going here, what I was going to kind of wait and see which one to lead with, and maybe let you lead, but I think I better lead with this.

Speaker 1:

I think I've got one that's going to underscore what we're talking about here on this authenticity situation. I might just read the whole thing. It's a two-minute read. The source here is called the Cooldown and the headline is Reportcovers alarming setbacks after shutdown of industrial coal plants. Here's where the blame is being placed.

Speaker 1:

The nation's largest electric grid operator is struggling to keep pace with the demands of its 65 million customers, but its issues are reportedly largely self-inflicted. What's happening? Well, according to Canary Media, dirty energy power plants run by PJM are ceasing operations faster than the clean energy sources can fill the gap in the District of Columbia, and all are part of the 13 states, from the mid-Atlantic coast to the Great Lakes. We've been talking about that the pace of energy demand versus willingness or capability to expand it right. This dilemma has overtaxed PJM's grid, but the company apparently will not take the necessary steps to alleviate this burden. It has delayed about 160 gigawatts worth of power grids, most of which are wind, solar and battery, waiting to go online, creating a worst-in-the-nation grid interconnection backlog. Per Canary Media, pjm also refuses to add batteries or other forms of energy storage to take advantage of the excess grid capacity generated by its existing wind, solar and fossil-based infrastructure, despite mandates from federal regulators.

Speaker 1:

Regulators have implemented what's known as Surplus Interconnection Service Rules, or SIS, ordering grid operators to allow power plants to install batteries and other energy capacity that can reserve excess energy until it's needed, something that would be particularly useful for intermittent renewable energy sources like wind and solar. Sis projects utilize previously approved grid capacity and are subjected to an expedited review that only takes 270 days. Nonetheless, pgm has rebuffed the solution, frustrating environmental and clean energy groups. They've adopted a standard that says if it's possible that interconnecting something could impact another project in the queue or trigger a transmission upgrade, we're not going to allow it, said Mike Borgatti, the senior vice president of wholesale power and market services for economic consultant Gable Associates.

Speaker 1:

Why is PGM's overburdened grid concerning? The writer asks this crisis has spiked the cost of electricity for millions of residents in its territory and could also potentially compromise the cost of electricity for millions of residents in this territory and could also potentially compromise the reliability of its grid by 2030. Pgm has a generation capacity of 180 gigawatts, but estimates from an independent market review cited by Canary Media found that it could lose 27 to 30% of that total by the end of the decade. Okay, and it goes on and on and on, but I just. This is an example. This is a glaring example, glaring, glaring because again, the nation's largest electric grid operator, okay, refusing to allow the renewables to come online that have been built Right.

Speaker 2:

The interconnection which you say are sitting out there, there's all this interconnected.

Speaker 1:

So talk about political risk, talk about monopoly risk. Yeah, that grid operator who's a monopoly, controlling 65 million people's power Right, 13 states is just saying nope, even though the feds are mandating it. How crazy is that? Yeah, okay, huge, huge case for decentralization, right? No more of that nonsense. We, we this. That's exactly why we've got to have decentralized power production with microgrids that local communities can control so they're not exposed to price gouging, price fixing and being held hostage to emissions and not being able to take advantage of these cleaner modalities or even expanding and having capacity to bring new business into the community. This is astounding to me.

Speaker 2:

It's a. It is astounding. It's astounding because it's so blatant yeah, it is. It's obvious to us, because we've been talking about this for months now, is that there is a, there's a huge reticence and now, and and you know, locally, we see politicians getting in the mix, going, you are going to need to to come to the table and figure this stuff out, because we're not going to be okay with this and it's actually moved beyond a left or right issue, as far as I can tell, and it's like no, I'm servicing the, I represent the people of my area, my state, my wherever, and you're not helping us out here, and we're going to make sure that you do, and so that's a very it's setting up to be a very interesting fight, and it's not just it's everywhere. It's everywhere across the US and we're going to see this more and more and more.

Speaker 2:

A lot of positioning and utilities. However, they're going to deal with this. Either they're going to go headlong and say, yes, we're going to deal with this. Either they're going to go headlong and say, yes, we're going to. You know, we're going to invest in interconnects, or we're going to do these things, we're going to be work with them, but that's not what we're seeing. No saying, no, you know, as I've said, we're dealing with a bunch of groups that don't necessarily want to play ball. That's right For whatever reason, and it could be monopoly control to keep profitability, but it's biopic because it's short-term.

Speaker 1:

If you lose 32% of your grid control by 2030, what good was that for you?

Speaker 2:

Well, so, far, they've never had a challenge. That's right, like a viable second option to come in and say, well, that's fine, and I know you and I know this and we see this is certainly out West. There are lots of groups, independent, private, saying we'll build it and figure out how to build it Right, and we don't need you anymore. That's right and that is. That hasn't ever happened. That's right Because building that kind of infrastructure has been it's still incredibly costly, but because of AI, because of the data center demand, you now have customers and you now can actually justify it and be able to say oh no, I can build this and I'm going to have a customer that's going to take an amazing amount of power and I'm going to have access.

Speaker 2:

So what else are we going to do with it? We're going to supply the local communities. We're going to do this, we're going to do that. And I don't know if they're paying attention. Maybe they are. I would imagine they are. I'd love to at some point we get. You know if, if, if they, if anybody's willing and they get the okay, or they're willing to come on from the, the energy sector on the utility side, which I doubt love to interview and say explain this to us. Is there a reason why? What is you what? What is you in your thinking as to why these things take a long time? Why's your opinion of why, uh, this provider is not moving quicker and not doing interconnecting agreements faster? You know? Give us some insight. Yeah, so if you're out there, if you're listening and you get the green light, we'd love to interview you.

Speaker 1:

Interview you and, because maybe there's an answer, I don't see it I don't see it absolutely so it's interesting because if we set aside the energy conversation for just a second and we focus on middle America, main Street America, rural USA, and we listen to those local community leaders, and what I'm hearing from all of them that we're talking to is our number one problem is our kids want to graduate high school and leave this community because there's no opportunity in this community. That is a common denominator. And read through every single rural community in the U? S why? Because there's no high paying jobs. They want to go to metropolitan areas where they can get big education and they can get better paying jobs. That's the hope, that's the programming narrative anyways Move to the big city and you're going to get the big paying job. That's not actually. I don't think true, and maybe, if it has historically been, it's shifting, okay. So from that lens, I'd like to consider that meeting the demand, meeting the needs at the community level of what they want.

Speaker 1:

Create high paying jobs means creating new businesses. If they're high paying, they're probably tech, it's. It's. There probably is a divergence away from some of the more traditional jobs like blue collar stuff. Well, we still need that. That's not enough to keep them in these small towns. Right, you can go do that in any town and you probably move to metropolitan Salt Lake City and probably make 20% more for the same job that you could make in rural Utah. I'd imagine if we did a study, that'd be an interesting study to look at. But that's where the rubber meets the road, when energy intersects needs, because we're not just talking about powering data centers, folks. We're talking about building energy, localized, decentralized energy and distributing it efficiently to the best benefit of that community so that they can attract new businesses, manufacturing jobs, tech jobs, remote jobs, remote, you can do remote jobs, but you need the infrastructure.

Speaker 2:

For example, you need to have good internet, sure, and not every community still has reliably good internet, and I mean you bring a data center in, you're bringing fiber in, chances are you're going to have really, really good connection in that area. What does that do downstream, right, like all the things that could impact? Yeah, it's not, you're right, it's not just about, it's not just about a data center of power, it's what is the follow-on to that? What does that mean? When you have, when you have enough power in a community and you have, maybe, let's just say, you have a bigger company that wants to come in and maybe they want to build a warehouse, right, very simple warehouse, sure, a refrigerated warehouse, let's say. And they would love to come in because you know, geographically, maybe you're, you know you're located in an area where it actually makes a lot of sense, but it's still considered rural. Well, we're not going to go there because, in order for us to get power and be able to run it, we can't do it, and so they don't even think about it.

Speaker 2:

But now, if I'm running a company and now I can strategically locate a warehouse along a major corridor, again still rural, but it has the power and and I realized that I'm going to need, you know, I'm going to need some area work. Well, that just changed it. It just changed it overnight. And now, all of a sudden, you, the community, might be able to have a warehouse that might, might support 20, 30, 40, 50 decent paying, probably good paying, jobs Right when you. And that is a result of because you had power right. You had enough power to be able, enough power and enough of the infrastructure items to attract somebody to say you know what, we would actually go there. They're not going there because the solve for that is so onerous, right?

Speaker 1:

So yeah, you're not going to get a new manufacturer on shoring from Japan or China anywhere back into the us or or transitioning out of california into utah, for example we see a wave of that because of the, the political nonsense, the regulatory environment, regulatory environment in california versus other states. But you're not going to get a manufacturer who's building a 40 million dollar facility to shoulder the bill of solving inferior grid capacity for an entire community. Or power production. Power production is a 300 million dollar minimum buy-in, right from what I'm seeing. Yeah, that's what we're seeing. Customers, they do have demand. They have all these things to back it up. Amazon's a big one 240 data centers, 75 million square foot on the plans. That's incredible growth.

Speaker 2:

Incredible growth, and even they are running into problems. That's right. That's why you've seen in the headlines a lot of leaning into how do we solve this with nuclear? Because they're recognizing that you can't build the amount of power you need fast enough, right? And so what are the bigger solutions? And even they are going. We're going to hit a wall here eventually, and so they're going to take all that.

Speaker 2:

But then you have all to your point. You have everybody else manufacturing, everyone else in this whole equation who are also going to need power. And that's why we come back to there's an opportunity in rural America that hasn't existed, I don't think. And rural America gets to control how this goes. Yeah, they get to say what their communities look like, and I think they're going to find that they're going to work with developers, they're going to work with bigger corporations to say, okay, we want you here, but this is, this is how we need it to look for our community. We don't want it to impact X, but we want this, and I think they're in it. Their rural communities are more and more going to find themselves in the driver's seat, because they actually do have what everybody needs.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's what I, what, what a lot of businesses are going to need in the future, and especially as we start to I I agree decentralized. I mean there's, there's just no way. I don't think there's a way around it unless you nationalize electricity, and that's. I don't see it and that's not going to happen. That's not going to happen.

Speaker 1:

Hat on for a minute. It feels axiomatic to me why that makes sense. For rural America to control the situation, they can offer land at a cost basis, a fraction of what you can buy in metropolitan USA. That's just for starters. So the barrier to entry is a much easier gate. On top of state, local federal tax benefits, tax abatement benefits, incentives that come along with that. I'm seeing in rural America much higher tax incentives than being in the major metropolitan. So stack that on top of the lower cost of land, the more of the availability of land. Stack that on top of municipal governments and their willingness to be flexible and when, their openness to look at public private partnerships, they they are acknowledging they are not the billion dollar enterprise, right, but they want to work with those businesses that can be. That's an interesting new dynamic.

Speaker 2:

It is a very interesting new dynamic and they are looking outside for solutions and oftentimes it's the private side that can help them with solutions they know they just can't tackle. We are obviously working with a community that wants to solve an issue with their airport as a local community right, yeah, as a local community, it's expensive. Right, they have a small tax base. They can't. It doesn't really support it. But it makes more sense when you start talking with other kinds of groups and you could see where a group from outside can come in and say, well, no, we have an interest in helping you solve this. So how does that work? And I think you're going to see community you know more communities like this say well, okay, we have this need and we have this need. We have an infrastructure need that unfortunately, we haven't been able to address.

Speaker 2:

Let's just say you know water. So let's just say we have an aging infrastructure here. We have access to water, but we need help. You know we might need $25 million in order to up our system. You might see a private enterprise go okay, we'll work with you to redevelop this and help this. We'll bring in the horsepower. We'll also look at federal grants. Look at all the things we can look at to help do this, minimize the immediate cost to everybody there, and then say, well, how does this work then? Going forward, because you're going to need it, we're going to need it if we grow here, yeah, so let's figure out how to solve it for everyone, right, and I think we're going to see a lot more of that Well, and you're right.

Speaker 1:

And if you just look at the land equation I just mentioned, throwing $25 million into a piece of public infrastructure that the community needs much cheaper than paying 10 times the amount per acre for a 500-acre site, by the way, yes, I mean, it's hundreds of millions of dollars cheaper to just build a community with the things that they need and they want Right Than trying to plow through the minutia and the pricing of a major metropolitan area. You got it right.

Speaker 1:

I hope the listeners are listening. I hope we're all paying attention. Today, taking notes today, this is good shit.

Speaker 2:

Today, no good shit and to your point, real, raw and relevant.

Speaker 2:

But, I've been mantra for two decades of like and that's you know. It's just be as authentic as we possibly can, right, yeah? Meaning just not as we can. We're going to just be real, just say, yeah, we're going to do what we do, yeah. So, on your to dovetail into what your last article said, and I think this is interesting. I was mentioning this to you. This came out of the Solar Daily, okay, and the headline is high renewable energy penetration reduces blackout impact. Interesting. So, as you're talking about the Eastern seaboard, might want to listen.

Speaker 1:

That's a new twist. It is a new twist, it's the first time I've seen it.

Speaker 2:

It was a study, so I'll read a little bit of the article here. It's by Sophie Jenkins, it's actually a UK thing. New research has revealed that power grids with significant use of weather-dependent renewable energy sources, such as wind and solar, tend to experience lower-intensity blackouts. This comes as positive news as nations worldwide strive to meet ambitious climate targets. Published in Nature Energy, the study analyzed data from US blackouts between 2001 and 2020, offering insights relevant to countries transitioning their power grids towards these weather-dependent renewable energy sources. In Ireland, for instance, renewable energy accounted for 38.9% of electricity generated in 2023, a figure projected to rise above 70% by 2030. Wow.

Speaker 2:

Discussions about the reliability of renewable energy and the global energy transition have often highlighted concerns over fluctuations. However, the study sheds new light on the debate. Xin Zhao, assistant professor of Trinity College, dublin School of Engineering, and the study's lead author, stated some have claimed that unstable reses, for short, are responsible for increasing power grid unreliability under extreme climate conditions, whereas others have argued that the wind and solar generation tend to be available even during extreme weather. The research counters the idea that the high penetration of renewable energy sources increases blackout risks. Instead, it demonstrated that, while extreme weather can heighten the system's vulnerability. These types of modalities do not exacerbate blackout occurrences or severity due to weather. Grids with substantial WDR res integration actually showed reduced blackout intensity, assessed by the number of impacted customers, the scale of loss and blackout duration.

Speaker 2:

So, interesting, it's first time I've seen it. Um, you know, again, I think this maybe underscores the point we will continue to talk about. We've said many times, and that is an all of the above approach, this is, uh, you, you know, if we're, if we're going to be solving this, it it's solving all the different parts. Each one of these types of power generation has its pros, each of it has its cons, and so maybe you know, it's a transition, it's using these things in combination gets us a better outcome, and I think this is the first study I've seen to even talk about this part of it. And it's interesting, um, be interesting to see how well it's received, you know, if the data is good. Again, it's a, it's a study. So I'm always, you know, until they, until they go through peer review, it's, it is what it is, and so, uh, but it's interesting.

Speaker 1:

It is interesting because you know I've read other studies that would reflect that weather-related outages are like account for 80% of the major outages right Weather caused. I mean, we look at Texas. I like to look at Texas because that freezing winter, the ice storm that caused $19, know, caused $192 billion of damage with with frozen pipes and building damage and all the things when the power went out for an extended period of time, weather related. It'd be interesting knowing that solar and wind are vulnerable to that type of that type of occurrence. But maybe, maybe there's a case for utility scale battery storage systems, because I think I stated in episode two or three that the fact that you remember that just scares me. I don't remember what I thought. I made a false statement.

Speaker 1:

Well, it was relevant at the time, but I think it's, I'm, I'm, I'm correcting it as we go which was, I think I stated in episode two or three we're not seeing utility scale battery storage coming on because the just the capacity isn't great enough, like you're not seeing. You're not seeing a gigawatt of battery storage. You're seeing. Well, I would at the time four or five megawatts for four to six hours is all you're seeing. Well, now, yeah, we're seeing reports of hundreds. 300 megawatt system, yeah, eight hours of backup capacity, yeah. So I guess what I'm acknowledging here in my my misstatement, or just what has evolved with rapidly evolving with time, is the tech and batteries to utility scale back backup storage is expanding fast. It's, it's, it's rolling out to kind of meet this, this redundancy need Cause I could see if that was on lock then you could look at solar and wind as viable augmentation of a grid. Right, and we could. We could probably lessen the likelihood of the blackout. So that's great.

Speaker 2:

It makes sense. And you know, being Utahns or being out here in the West, we understand not like the Pacific Northwest. Our winter is a little bit different. Sure, we could be super, super, super, super cold and a lot of snow, but it's sunny. So positive for solar. Solar, provided you have the infrastructure, provided that's. You know, with our meetings this last week, one of the things they brought up um, it's a company in the, you know who manufactures at the very base level. You know they said it's it's, you know it's inferior products and it's an aging grid. Yeah, I mean that's also. You know it's. You might have the, you might have the source there, but if it's going across lines that are brittle, that are 40 or 50 years old or using, let's say, you know, porcelain, porcelain insulators, for example.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, with six month warranties yeah.

Speaker 2:

That might be a problem and that might cause all kinds of problems. That is a weather related thing, but it's also well. It's also using maybe older technology, and so I think it's it's probably it's also well, it's also using maybe older technology.

Speaker 2:

And so I think it's probably a. Obviously it's a combined thing and you're right, I think there's all kinds of solutions. The battery stuff is very interesting. I mean I think they've been quietly out there going from small to large-scale operations, and that actually reminds me we'll have to talk about this. Afterwards We'll have to add it to our interview list. Somebody I know who's in that space, who's running a company. I'd love to just pick their brain and talk to them. What's you know? What are they seeing in the space? What are they seeing on the on the battery storage side? And where? Where are we going? Battery storage, what? How do they see the?

Speaker 1:

future of this. We happen to have a call next Tuesday with one of those folks founder, CEO, founder I Don't name the company now. Hopefully we'll get an interview with him in coming weeks, but talking about utility-scale battery backup systems, as well as AI, power management and advanced cybersecurity platforms. Security, folks Security, grid security, it's a thing.

Speaker 2:

It's a big deal. It's a big damn deal. It's a big deal, it is and it's a thing, big deal, it's a big damn deal. You know it's a big, it is and it's a huge deal anyway. But if you and this is the, you know the, the show we've talked about, um it it. You know, if you look at how our grid is currently, we have transmission over long distances.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's also a weakness, quote unquote, sure, because if you take down power that at very critical points, it affects the entire, it could literally affect the entire nation, and that is a concern. It's a concern everybody, you know, knows that they've been working towards. I mean, it's something the industry has been working on trying to solve, but it's not getting. The risk isn't lessening because I've been working out of the risk is just increasing, like it is in every sector right now. Yeah, so it's something we have to be so as you know it it, it actually as you become more decentralized in a way, that's also, you know. You know, in a macro kind of a way, probably more secure because you can't affect so many people with very strategic kind of outages.

Speaker 1:

Well, we're just coming in here on the last few minutes of the episode today, but to dovetail into that and as a final thought, talking about grid security and a case for microgrids, smart microgrids I firmly believe that one of the biggest failures of the traditional grid system is there's no federal mandate to provide security physical or otherwise physical or cyber against some of these vulnerabilities we've identified in the show. And so if they don't want to do it, they're not going to do it, it's just an extra expense against the bottom line. I think a case it's a strong case for new private, private developed, private owned, decentralized power production resources like what we're planning and developing leads the way to set an example for next gen cybersecurity measures, physical security design and setting a new standard held or, you know, traditional power co-ops or power companies to get on board with all of this and start hardening from all angles.

Speaker 2:

It's going to be very interesting. That is going to be very interesting, for sure. Yeah, for sure, I guess we'll. Should we call it an episode? Yeah, let's wrap it. Wrap it today and we will. I guess we'll talk to you next time on the Frontier Line.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us.

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David P. Murray

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Wayne M. Aston

Host