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THE FRONTIER LINE
Hosts Wayne Aston and David Murray explore the critical global pillars of infrastructure development and energy production, from traditional methods to future-forward advancements. The Frontier Line covers the latest industry news, energy innovations, and sustainability trends that are shaping the future. Through expert interviews with industry leaders in renewable energy, utility-scale battery storage, and waste-to-energy technologies, the podcast provides insights into the evolving landscape of energy efficiency and sustainable infrastructure. By focusing on the intersection of innovation and the politics of energy, The Frontier Line highlights transformative ideas and technologies poised to deliver cost-efficient, resilient, and sustainable solutions for global industries.
THE FRONTIER LINE
Invictus Sovereign- Chief Business & Information Officer, Dave Murray
Our conversation also sheds light on the shifting media landscape, where financial pressures and blurred lines between newsrooms and advertisers challenge journalistic integrity. We examine the complexities of media influence, particularly in Utah, where the LDS Church plays a significant role. This thought-provoking discussion explores the delicate balance of unbiased journalism and the courage required to report on powerful entities without succumbing to external pressures.
Personal stories weave through our dialogue as we touch on the power of podcasting to break down barriers and offer authentic, diverse perspectives. From the challenges of parenting in a fast-changing world to embarking on health journeys and lifestyle changes, this episode offers a rich tapestry of professional triumphs and personal growth. Join us for an engaging exploration of life’s pivotal moments with Dave Murray, whose experiences and insights are sure to inspire.
Okay, welcome back everybody. Hello, very excited for today. Me too. Dave, how are you feeling today? I'm good. Wayne, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm good, ready to chat, ready to get into it, we're ready to get after it, and I hear you're going to put me on the spot today, aren't you?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, Absolutely, guys. Today I'm so excited to interview our very own Dave Murray.
Speaker 2:Yay, because you know I love talking about myself.
Speaker 1:I recognize that, so I'll do most of the talking. Just kidding, I love talking, just not about myself. I'm just glad that you're willing to do it. I'm just glad you're open to letting me interview you. Willing, open, open Ish, and not openly opposed. So let me start off with giving the proper introduction. All right, because we we've done. You know, every time we're doing an interview, you know you deserve.
Speaker 1:The listeners deserve to know what an amazing, amazing guy you are and some of the I'm gonna mean. Obviously, the bio just highlights we're going to dive into this stuff but what people really need to understand who Dave Murray is. Thanks, okay, so, dave, you're going to find out who you are today.
Speaker 2:This is going to be great. It's like therapy. It's therapy with Wayne, that's right. That's a good option. Yeah, it's going to be our next podcast.
Speaker 1:So Dave is the Chief Business and Information Officer for Invictus Sovereign. Also a general partner, dave is primarily responsible for building and maintaining relationships with investors, managing corporate communications, developing and executing the company's investor relations strategies, ensuring corporate governance and regulatory compliance, developing and implementing best practice PR strategies, building and maintaining key external relationships media, community, government, industry and managing the company's reputation. You've done a heck of a job helping manage my reputation personally. Thank you for that. Why get into that? Dave is a seasoned C-suite executive and growth leader with a proven track record of success. Early in his career, dave helped lead KUTV, cbs and O&O to the number one rated news station in Utah and was recognized for his outstanding contributions with multiple local and national awards. In 2008, dave co-founded his first company, certified Tax Advantage, which he exited in 2011. He went on to co-found a marketing company, a commercial real estate blockchain company, and consulted and advised hundreds of businesses, private and public organizations, athletes, musicians, hollywood executives and technology leaders. In addition to these ventures, dave was a president at the Safe Steps e-learning company, president at Atlas Inc. Ott broadcasting platform, created one of the first NFTs and developed patents related to the metaverse and AI, and a partner at Cognitive LLC, Capital Strategy, oz, reit, commercial Real Estate, m&a, private Equity, capital Strategy, wealth and Tax Planning, where they raised over $425 million for clients, and Dave's portfolio included modular building, sustainable tech, real estate, cyber security, blockchain and ai. You are an incredible, incredible man, thanks, and it's mind-boggling to me to meet someone who's not only dabbled in so many different things, but has cultivated deep knowledge and understanding in in so many areas. I mean, it takes a lot of a lot of heart and a lot of brain power to do what you've done all these years. A wonderful thing. So thank you for letting me me letting me read that, because that's, that's incredible.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, one of the one of the things that I think we talk about often is your experience over a decade with the news, yeah, and the media, and I've just been fascinated to hear some of the stories that you've shared with me over the years of running, you know, kutv. Um, why don't we start right there? Let's start there, let's start there and we're gonna, we're gonna. I'd like to kind of bounce around. Sure, in the time frame, this is not going to be a chronological thing, but but I want to talk about your childhood, I want to talk about education. I want to talk about your childhood. I want to talk about education. I want to talk about all the things, but let's start for just a second. Just maybe give me a highlight that you haven't shared on the show already about your experience in the newsroom.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, wayne, I appreciate it. Great words, it's very kind. And I will say this in all of those experiences, the one thing I have taken away and continue to take forward is that there was nothing I did singularly it was always with a team and I've learned, and I've taken that forward, is that you can't meaningfully get anywhere without enlisting a team, or being part of a team, or following, or leading or whatever you're called upon to do. It was always buying into whatever it might've been at that time. And so in regards to you know, channel two KTV, you know it was a I didn't plan to be in that career, it was literally just by chance.
Speaker 2:I was at I was at a friend's wedding, actually, and met somebody who was working there and I was just finishing up at the university, was contemplating going to law school, was finishing up in philosophy and I started in business that's a whole different story and then finished philosophy and then they said you should come and try, you should do an internship. I'm like, okay, I'll do an internship, sure, why not? I went interviewed, they brought me on. I think two weeks into the job I was working as an intern. You kind of get thrown around and you do all these different things, like basically wherever they need an intern, because I didn't have a communications background, but I actually came into that having management experience because I had managed a music store, which is a fascinating story, and it's all right, because we don't really have those kinds of things around anymore, not like that. I want to dig into the music store too.
Speaker 2:It was a great experience. It was a phenomenal experience on all kinds of levels, also culturally, you know, to have all these people coming in all the time in one place around music. So, but you know, I did, I did this and I think it was like two weeks in, a guy who ended up becoming my mentor said hey, I need you to call Center Hatch, I need you to get Center Hatch on the phone. I'm like, okay, this is a lot of fun. I'm just going Okay, all of a sudden, I'm doing this and I'm brand new. Okay, this is a lot of fun. I'm just going, okay, all of a sudden, you know I'm doing this and I'm brand new in this business and I'm getting to do things that are exciting to me. And it changes every day and it's wholly different. I'm either tracking down interviews or going out and interviewing people, or it's just an exciting, thrilling, crazy environment to be in news, especially at that time. So at that moment I'm like I love this, I mean I love this. And so, very quickly, I just threw myself into it and they gave me a part-time job.
Speaker 2:While I was an intern, I started making some money. It was a paid in, you know making a little bit here and there. And you know, shit job. You know it was like, yeah, I need making a little bit here and there, and you know, shit job. Yeah, you know it was like, yeah, I need you to sit and listen to scanners overnight on the assignment desk, right, you know, on Friday and Saturday night. So I hope you aren't doing anything, you know. But that's kind of the deal. You know, you get into the business and you do what you can to either impress or learn, and for me, I just wanted to learn everything. Yeah, right, and so that's what I did. Yeah and um, I never looked back and so, you know, I had finishing up, but then I got offered a job, um, full-time job. Uh, right out of the gate. Um became a associate producer and I was on associate producer and then on the assignment desk and desk and kind of half and half. So I'd spend time in the field, I'd spend time on the assignment desk.
Speaker 2:The assignment desk for anybody who's not never been around a television station is you're basically the nerve hub of the entire operation. You are, you're the, you're the group that is, you know, getting reporters and and photographers or videographers to a scene. You're covering the news. You're listening to, obviously, scanners, you're listening to all this traffic coming in. You're the group that every PR person is calling At the time. You're getting faxes in, we convert over to emails and you've got your pulse on everything that's going on in the operation and you're trying to cover news, not miss anything, and then trying to deal with reporters and producers and everybody to make it all happen. That's the assignment desk, so it's kind of the command center of the operation and you learn everything, and so that was a wild experience, and so I just didn't expect to fall in. I didn't expect to be doing this, and I turned around, I had a full-time job and from there I just continued to work my way up into the business and had some amazing experiences. So that was how I got into it.
Speaker 1:I love that you know one of my favorite movies Anchorman 60% of the time.
Speaker 1:It works all the time 60% of the time it works all the time and invariably, every time I hear you share a story about channel 2 news, I'm envisioning you and the team and you know and others that maybe were probably not of your actual team but would fit on the anchorman team if you were in like a gang fight of news news channels and I wonder how much of that I mean. You know, anchorman is like set in the 70s, you know it's super, super goofy and fun.
Speaker 2:I heard stories you know they would call the heyday of like local news and that was probably the, you know, late 70s and 80s. Yeah right, and then and then it, you know, at least in the utah market it got a little bit more. Not that it, it wasn't serious, in fact. Actually they did some amazing journalism back then, but it was the news operation. They were lost leaders. They weren't. They weren't the profit setters that they've become, and so you know they were. That was the kind of the image of the entire station. So sure, you were your channel and you have all this programming, but the impression in the market was based upon what you did in the news, and so you hearing this again. And the Utah market's a really interesting and intriguing market. In fact it's actually been studied. Consultants look at the Utah market as being almost a unicorn in the entire media space and I learned that eventually when they come in here and like, yeah, these numbers, these kinds of things don't exist anywhere else in the country. Wow, we were also kind of a farm team for network news. We had a lot of people that started in Utah that ended up going on the network level because we were really good at what we did and we had some amazing communications programs. Byu I'm a Ute, but BYU has, and still has, an amazing communications program and pushed a lot of people through that program and went on to do some really significant things. As such, this market produced some really really interesting things.
Speaker 2:You had at a time where you had the TV station and didn't have just one helicopter because that wasn't good enough, maybe had two helicopters and and and and. Then there was a time when they had a plane and understand, these things were really expensive. Yeah, like you know, in our time we actually, you know, we brought back sky to, we brought back the helicopter. It was not cheap to operate. I think we were thousands of dollars an hour to have that thing up and running, and so these are incredible expenditures. Now, if you look at the broad and how much these operations cost, it's expensive but, as I said, it became profit centers and so you're looking, how are you making margins? How are you making all these things? Those kinds of nice-to to haves and we've noticed have gone away, with the exception of, you know, locally one station, ksl, has the has a chopper now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and they, you know there's a reason for that, yeah, yeah, but back in the 80s it was, checkbook was open, wow, and they covered stuff all over the world. And also at that time time the Utah market was the largest geographical market in the United States and so our coverage went all the way up into Montana Wow, montana, idaho, wyoming, nevada, saw Channel 2, channel 5. And so you had to cover that area. And so you had to cover that area. And so just here in utah, if you just don't nowhere else, just to get to southern utah to cover a story is not an easy, you know, quick, it's not an easy. And so you're still, you're still trying to cover, uh, you know a geographic area, and so that's, that's kind of what.
Speaker 2:Everybody was fortunate, so so having a helicopter, having a plane, having all these things was critical to operation to be able to cover this. And when, I think when the lds church went into russia for the first time and mission, they went, they just got on a plane and went that, yeah, you know that kind of stuff, yeah, you know that kind of stuff started to go away. Yeah, um, uh, you know as, as, but we, we I mean we, you know, I look back now, we still did some amazing things, we were still able to look, I had a lot of toys at my disposal and we were able to cover news in a way that I haven't really seen it covered since in this market and any market. I mean, we did some amazing things. And again, mike, I can go on and on and on about probably the experiences, mike, yeah, I can go on and on and on about probably the experiences, but generally speaking, the, the business, the business part of news was interesting. It taught me a lot about people, yeah, about how to tell a story, about what connected what was important. It taught me how people don't listen, yeah, and don't pay attention, yeah, and no, you know, offense people out there, but there are a lot of crazy people out there. Sure you, there are a lot of crazy people out there. Sure, you know, politicians get phone calls all the time. So do we? So did we, yeah, and I think, people that are just detached from reality and you start to see kind of what we're kind of dealing with, like trying to get information out and it's not necessarily easy and people aren't really paying attention. So there's that part of it. You also saw a drive towards.
Speaker 2:You know and this is where I can go in and talk about where I feel media has gone. Media is run by moneyed interest, which is fine. I mean it's a capitalist enterprise. You're there to make money and, as such, you do things that make you money. Make money and, as such, you do things that make you money. And so sometimes you know the old school journalists would say they would be appalled, even though there are times when you go back to RJ you know the tobacco and some of these things with 60 minutes in the early things where they got a lot of pressure not to run certain stories. Sure, that was rare, or it was rare that any entity would cave.
Speaker 2:Now I'm going to say that that's not rare and there's a lot of, whether it's advertisers, local businesses. I mean it's good for local business, but are you getting the news news? Are you getting what people are paying to get on there? And there's a lot more of that On a local level. Does that affect their quality? No, they're still going to cover the basic stuff like they cover the basic stuff, and I think most local news, wherever you are in the country, does a pretty good job. They're going to cover the, the goings on at the, the council meetings and this and the, the politicians and what's. You know the weather and all those going on, goings on in your community, but they're over time. Over the last decade and a half, what's creeped in is a lot of influence from advertisers. Yeah, where there was a line of demarcation for a while, like nope, advertisers stay out of the newsroom, that that's changed. Yeah, and that's unfortunate, but it's kind of though, if you want to have these operations, that's how you pay for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, one, one thing that I really you, that you've shared over the years about all of that experience with media, is your personal values and how that was opportunity for distinction within the space. And you know, we, we, we have personally experienced some shifts and just here in 2023, we have this new legislation, this expanded protection for media, this expanded protection of free speech well, expanded protection of a free speech. Well, you, peppa, is what they referred to it. I've personally had experience with this, as you know, yep and um.
Speaker 1:It's been pretty disappointing to for me to to have direct, uh, uh, direct kind of experience in that and recognize that media generally and their attorneys are not necessarily interested in facts there's, it seems to be completely devoid of a determination to present the news Like you were saying, like back in the day it was, it was truly news. Nowadays and and we're seeing this, you know, nationally we're seeing CNN, we're seeing some of these networks where it's just like sci-fi novelism. Your values grounded you and, as things were shifting into the space that we're in now, where facts don't matter and we're reporting based on advertisers and other agendas, you had opposition when you were sticking to core values.
Speaker 2:Personally, Does anything stick out that you want to share about how your values impacted that? Well, I'll weigh into one. That's probably controversial, but it's certainly topical here in Utah. Obviously, the LDS church has a inordinate amount of influence here in Utah, for good reason, I mean obviously it's. It's a community built around the LDS church or found on the LDS church, and, and and I and I get it. For the prior to my time at kutv, there was a you know history. Historically in this market, ksl was the station of the church owned by the church, still owned by the church. Uh, bonneville communications.
Speaker 2:Kutv was the antithesis of that so you had one station that was the, if you will, the byu station, and one station that was the, if you will, the BYU station, and one station that was the Utah station, university of Utah station. On sports, you had the Paul James, bill Marcroft, you had these very, very steeped in. We each have our own things. And so, back at that time and very similar, the Tribune and the deseret news yeah, you know, still today, yeah yeah, um, and, and they would take a different tactic on and and politics.
Speaker 2:Yes, but fundamentally, how you cover the church, yeah, right, how you cover the goings-on. You have a lot of people that would say would argue, well, you're not supposed to cover church, like, well, that would that to me, that's, you know, I, I think it would be, um, terrible, and it would be irresponsible of us not to pay attention to what's going on, because they're the largest single entity in the state of utah on all kinds of fronts. Of course we're going to cover them. How we chose to cover them was a little bit different. Of course we're going to cover them. How we chose to cover them was a little bit different. And I would always argue that we needed to be.
Speaker 2:You know, there was a sense, even when I kind of got into it. You could, you could feel some of that hangover of like I would argue there's probably some anti-church sentiment. Sure, for me, I grew up here. I can tell you stories of where I, you know and me I grew up here. I can tell you stories of where I, you know and I'm not part of that. But I can tell you stories where I felt a bit ostracized, but I didn't carry that forward into how we chose stories or how I I I wanted to see us cover the church and in fact I had a really good relationship and, I think, a very reasonable, responsible relationship with them to where we had our lines. I didn't go with everything they said, but I also respected them and I gave them their due course and I wasn't going after them. We didn't go after them, sure, sure. We didn't set out like, okay, we're going to go after them because it's the LDS church and what that taught me is that, you know, um, I learned how to be, um, very self reflective and objective as much time as we had, because in news things are changing really fast on how to cover, how to choose stories and how to approach these things, and so we kind of looked at it as like, okay, we're just going to cover this and do it in our way and tell it our way.
Speaker 2:Um, and the one thing that I don't know that's ever been public, there was one year we went after a conference, we wanted to carry it. Wow, and I think we shocked a lot of people. Wow, I went, I suggested it and got buy-in from the GM and I said what do you think? And he's like do you think there's any chance? I'm like I don't think there's a chance at all, but we should ask. And I said, because we thought we could do a better job, yeah, and realizing fully well, okay, we want eyeballs. Well, I want those eyeballs on the weekend, yeah, and also we're going to go out and tell all these other additional stories and I additional stories, I think we can do a better job telling stories than our competitors. I think we can go out and tell a more personal story Interesting.
Speaker 2:And so we made the move. We said we offer as a station to carry it. It went. So I've been told it went all the way through, all the way up, and there was some serious consideration given to also airing it on KUTV. The end they didn't go there. But we tried. And I think anybody probably knew me like what are you doing? I was like because I'm trying to cover the local events in the best way possible, which is we're not a station that represents just one side.
Speaker 2:We're a station that represents everybody and, as a result, we're going to go out and find the things that we find newsworthy. And if, on a weekend, the biggest thing going on that weekend is conference, well of course we want to cover it and be able to deliver it to our constituency. On biased journalism Right Absolutely, and we did. I mean, I did have an opinion that I felt that KSL didn't ask the hard questions. Sometimes they didn't. Sure, they took us through it and I understand it because they're on and they had to walk a fine Again going the other way.
Speaker 2:If you're a journalist over there, okay, who owns you? Can you ask the hard questions? Is your job in jeopardy by asking those hard questions? Right, this is the same thing that's happening in corporate america in the media side today. Can I ask, can I ask this question that might not get me any fans from advertisers, owners, and that's that's some of the stuff I'm talking about is when we talk about these things, and that's that's going on all the time, all the time, and now now, now, we, I, we I've said this to you, I've said this to all kinds of people for years what exists now, it's, it's political, um, editorializing, it's just talk, it's talk it's talk tv?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's not. Yeah, they cover topics that are newsy, topics that are events. They're within the realm of news. They're within the realm of news, but they use news. It's just commentary. It's not news. It's not. Here's what's going on. Let's move on it's. We're going to talk about a program. Why? Because those programs are cheaper to produce.
Speaker 2:If you do it well and you get people worked up, you get good ratings out of those, because people love to get worked up. Sure, you understand that inherently. If you work in this industry, you understand pretty well your audience and you know what you need to say in order to get them to keep coming back and coming back. So it's not like, hey, this is an important topic, we're going to cover it. No, no, no. What do we need to do today to get those eyeballs back? Sure, and so that's the kind of mentality and I'm saying that's across the board that's going into these things, not to even mention about whether it's true or not. I'm just saying that's what I'm saying. It's editorializing, it's not really going out and let nugget of information. It's. Let's just get people on because we can, because we need to fill 24 hours of time, which is what CNN, if we remember the CNN of old the.
Speaker 2:CNN of old was 30 minutes, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. But it was news, it was headline news, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then it went into this more long form why People watch it longer, make more money. Sure, went into this more long form. Why people watch it longer, make more money? Sure, but ratings are better, sure, that's it, and so we get. People are getting what they want, yeah, whether or not they know that or not. So, and that's a whole different thing, because you know what they want and what they expect. Changes over time.
Speaker 1:People are fickle it's really interesting to see the the trending here in the last year or two toward really high level podcasting. Yeah, joe rogan tucker carlson yes, we've, we've brought several of these up, but tucker carlson in particular, you know, major, major media figure coming from the news space now with his own podcast and I would argue, not the news space, but that's just me okay, okay, I would argue that.
Speaker 2:You know, I, I'll be the one and I'll probably piss off a lot of people. But fox was never news. Okay, I mean I, I, when they started it out, honestly, back in the day, and this is a long time ago, this is, you know, not, not, we're not talking the last 10 or 15 years, uh, we're talking 20 years ago, 25. They, I looked at them as the inquirer of news. Okay, you know, they were the star, the whatever they found, whatever was, would most scare their base and why. It sold, yeah, sold advertising. Yeah, kept eyeballs. They were going after 65 and older demographic. They realized that very smartly.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying it was a smart business play. Yeah, it has morphed and it has changed. I'm just just saying that's. You know, they can say have all their slogans, but I was not a fan back then. Why? Because I didn't see them, because I actually dealt with them and I saw them not necessarily focused on news. Now they put in a political. They said, well, we're going to represent another side, and that's when it kind of morphed into this, the current iteration. But the way it started out was not the. Yeah, that was my interest. I mean I, that you know and, and I think, early on the crossfire, the crossfire where Tucker was with he's with another camera, who he was with. He was with he's on the show, but you know where these they had. They were tried to balance it out. They had more of these. Like you had a guy on the left, somebody on the right, the John McLaughlin group was on PBS.
Speaker 1:You had two people on the right, two people on the left and him screaming in the middle.
Speaker 2:Those are kind of early political programs. This has all changed, but to his credit, to Tucker's credit, as a very astute broadcaster and in this space he built a massive following, you know, and that's where we are Right. We're about followings. Where it's L O'Reilly, whether it's that, or on the other side, rachel Maddow's, lawrence, lawrence you can just go to the list. Everybody's building followings, yeah, and I'm sitting here going okay, you can have political commentary, neat. But are you actually getting to the heart of the matter? And you know they will say that they're doing a service. Both sides will say they're doing a service and I don't know, I, I don't know. I mean, are we being serviced? We, everybody's pissed off now.
Speaker 1:Yeah are we happy with it?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's kind of where I've come to that. Are we really happy arguing with each other and each other? I don't think that's kind of where all of us are, yeah, and we're worked up. We're worked up because guess're worked up, because guess what Worked up sells Worked up also raises money.
Speaker 1:You're a very calm energy, a very logical guy and when we have a group and we get into heated debate, you commonly present the voice of reason.
Speaker 2:I don't know about that.
Speaker 1:I think it's one of your gifts and I have the unique opportunity to know you really really quite well, I believe in the last few years that we've become so close. Thanks.
Speaker 2:And I cut you off. You were going to ask something about podcasting because I oh, the quality it's amazing, yeah, and so here's the interesting part it's people not wanting to go through the old ways of doing things. It's saying you know what? We have? Technology. Now we're going to work around, right, what used to be a space you couldn't get into, okay, you?
Speaker 2:could unless you got anointed, right, and you got picked, you couldn't compete on that space Sponsored by one of those flags, right? No, you could not compete. You couldn't compete with you know, there's an argument to saying there's, there's, there's, there's a good argument for citizen journalism on the same level that journalism on maybe local levels wasn't being done properly and so maybe there's an opportunity for citizen journal. Well, how, how do you get around? Well, social media has opened that up. Podcasting and the popular podcasting has as, and technology I mean, we're sitting here using really good microphones.
Speaker 2:These things used to be re and they still are incredibly expensive to pull off this infrastructure. That had to be. You couldn't play in that space unless you paid your way. Sure, you couldn't lay millions of dollars to have launch a show. You can play it now. The Joe Rogan's, the world, everybody the they've proven that not only can you do well, you can thrive and actually do it better. And that people, as we've mentioned in an earlier thing, people want a long-form conversation. They're okay with that. They might, in our moments, maybe want 30-second, 10-second clips or 30-second head, whatever it is, but people appreciate a conversation.
Speaker 1:I think I think one thing that I at least me personally, and I think the majority really appreciates about that as authenticity. If I watch Joe Rogan or Sean Ryan or some of my favorites, even Tucker, I feel like there's some authenticity. When they're interviewing someone or when they're covering a certain topic, it's largely devoid of narrative, it's mostly focused on an objective, trying to really flesh something out, trying to really understand the person in front of them, and I really appreciate that. I think that's where the great divergence into podcasting, away from some of the news mainstream, is coming. Let's shift gears for a second, dave. I want to turn back the clock.
Speaker 2:I want to go back to.
Speaker 1:Dave, dave, back in the early days. You're born and raised in Utah and I know something about your parents and your proud father and there are formative things that have shaped your life growing up in utah elementary school, high school. We can talk about the? U we both. We both went to the? U of u, yeah, but but can you share something with the listeners about one of the big formative formative experiences of your upbringing here in Utah?
Speaker 2:There's probably a few. It was interesting, growing up non-Mormon, and I think that's probably common for anybody who grew up here, and I'm not saying, you know, in retrospect, were there some moments where I'm like bad, yeah, were there some great moments? Yes, and I mean I, I have life, as I've gotten older I've, you know, I've really appreciated the, the community, um, the, the depth of the community. That had an impact on me considerably. I mean, I can't not, I'm a proud Utahn and I, even though I've been frustrated with certain kinds of, you know well, I'll pick one. You know, for a long time, the liquor laws I thought were antiquated and hurt us as a state. Sure, I mean, I'm just picking on one small thing and I think some of that, you know that was bothersome to me, you know, and there's a lot of that. Go back and forth and pull and push, but it impacted me and I think, on the whole in a really good way.
Speaker 2:Some of my best friends, absolutely Like most of my friends growing up around me, obviously, I went to a parochial school. So I spent 14 years in parochial school, so from preschool to eighth grade, and then I went to a judge memorial, so catholic high school, um, and then to the u, um, but I always found myself around, even even at judge, I found myself around. Not not necessarily it was just all catholics, and I appreciated that. What I appreciated is the you know, as diverse as I, we probably could be in Utah. I had a diverse experience. I was exposed to a lot of different things and so I had you know, fortunately my parents were fine with me hanging out with my friends and going to and spending time at the ward and, you know, playing basketball and playing softball and just having fun with my friends. Those experiences taught me going forward.
Speaker 2:When people would say oh, when they'd say bad things about, um, the church, I know I'm, you know my discreet, but I would have it. I would have a visceral reaction. I'm like that's not my experience, yeah, yeah, I experienced some stuff, but I also, you know, I also experienced the good side, on the flip side. Did I experience some ostracization? Yes, because did I have kids in the neighborhood who's more not allowed to hang out with me because we didn't go to church there? Yeah, absolutely yeah, um, did that suck at the time? Yeah, also taught me, you know, it's better to be open and accommodating. That was the lesson. The lesson was not to be angry. The lesson was, in my own life, to be more open to people who aren't like me.
Speaker 1:If that's I 100 percent, resonate with that deeply. You know, I was raised mostly in Las Vegas, nevada, as a Mormon and experience the exact opposite of what you're explaining, where I was the minority, couldn't play with certain friends, couldn't do certain things, felt ostracized because of that. Affiliation Came out of it all the same, very similar. I'm proud to be sitting here with you and be able to announce to the world that I'm very universalist, because the God I know loves all of us the same. In my humble opinion, he doesn't require us to be part of any one club or organization to have his grace or his love, and that enables us to sit here at this table together from opposite backgrounds and love each other as brothers, like we do, and I was so grateful for that.
Speaker 2:Thank you, me too, and that's an important lesson. It was not everybody's going to be like you and you don't have to agree with everything. Yeah, which going forward. You know current world the way it's in. I have friends across the board and I'm glad I'm, you know, blessed that I have a breadth of friends. I consider that a strength, absolutely. You know I don't agree with my family and everything I mean, you know, on anything.
Speaker 1:But you know, and I love them yeah.
Speaker 2:And that I think, unfortunately, it's very easy to be angry at people, it's very easy to be pissed off at somebody who's not you, and I've learned that that is not a way I wanted to go about in life. I wanted to be again. I've learned this. I haven't always been perfect at it, but I I think, as I, you know, I I've done a pretty good job of being like.
Speaker 2:I've done a very good job because of my experiences, realizing that, as much as we all think we're different, there's a lot of continuity, yeah, and there's a lot of overlap, and that's what we should focus on, as opposed to what how we're different, yeah, yeah so well.
Speaker 1:I I honor that and appreciate that and that's very much been my experience right now in this existing, in this political environment that is so decisive, divisive, excuse me, and and, depending on what media you subscribe to, very divisive either. Both sides very divisiveive, it's divisive, and so I find it is toxically divisive and I find myself just having an allergic reaction to all of that, because I really value inclusion and I really value unity, yeah, and I really value cooperation and the spirit of cooperation and how these things build business in the most effective way. If we stay focused here on your upbringing, I had some really great mentors as a kid, one or two in particular that absolutely shaped my life. In fact, my oldest son's middle name is named after one of those great mentors. Did you have any mentors that you could key into that really helped shape you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot. Yeah, I mean I had, yes, I naturally, you know I think I was, you know I had, fortunately, naturally and fortunately for me, I had grandparents very close by Both sets.
Speaker 2:And when I say close by, you know, being able to grow up, you know, within a few miles of my grandparents was really nice. You know. They were obviously my natural and my parents my good, again good, and maybe, you know, took it, you know took um from them and then also going okay, maybe that's not what I want to take for um, as you do with families, um, but I, you know, I, had a lot of different influences in that way. I had a lot of um, um, I had a lot of um. You know, my, my grandmother, I had a lot of, you know, my grandmother, my mom, very strong women, both my grandmas. My dad's mom graduated from college in the 20s, wow, as did all of her sisters, wow.
Speaker 1:Which was unheard of back then, that's unheard of in those days.
Speaker 2:Sure, my other grandma education very important, similarly, my other grandma education very important Similarly, and I think from them especially learning those lessons and seeing them be strong was important. It allowed me to see that strength it's not a male or female thing, it's it's a both thing. And and so that was. I think that's helped me form. That was formative for me, seeing, you know um, you know my father grandfathers, all military, um the commitment they had to bigger things. It's I don't know that we have that much anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah strong altruism, commitment, not just in in what they say, but what they do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes you sometimes, you know they will. You know. I think my dad would say you know he was doing it because you know that felt right at the time. But I, you know, I think it also came with a sense of that it was bigger than the person.
Speaker 1:Well, that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they did that and they did that. I'm sure they were scared and didn't know what would happen and all those things, but they did it because it was this, you know, this overarching commitment to an idea that we're all in this together, yeah, and we've got to give a shit about each other, yeah, and about bigger ideals, absolutely. And for them, you know, we can talk about the freedom and you know, fighting for the right to be able to continue in this American experiment, to be able to continue in this American experiment and, um, you know, I unfortunately I mean I probably didn't talk to them as much as I wanted to my grandparent, my grandpas, when they were both alive about this, but they each had their unique experiences and they did it and they were loyal to that idea. And I guess that you know it's not the military well, it's the military or this. It's a loyalty to an idea, yeah, that isn't bigger than us.
Speaker 2:So, taking that, I think that had a huge impact on now I see the world and that taking that, I think that had a huge impact on how I see the world. I've always wanted to approach things like where can I contribute? How can I make things better. It's idealist, but it's what I believe, and I've had the good fortune to be able to participate in some things that made a difference in people's lives.
Speaker 1:Well, I've experienced this with you and this is maybe one of your biggest, brightest gifts. The aura about you exudes this commitment to the big picture, that you have a very strong sense of altruism that I admire. That inspires me in the way we shape our companies, the way we interact with other stakeholders outside of our businesses. This is something that's an extremely important authentic value for enrollment, unification and really making things move fast and wide with deep, deep commitments and deep relationships. It's not surface transaction. You know surface level stuff. Fast forward and thank you for sharing that. About the thanks for asking, you did it.
Speaker 2:You you got me to um. You know that's a but it it. You know we've asked this of some of our other partners. It's, it's, it's the why I mean fundamental to everything I do is you know, um, and, and it's been that I've had people say you know you freely give of yourself, you know, to your, sometimes to my own detriment, and I've had to struggle with that because it's like it's natural for me, one like I will. I want to just move us. I want the group to win. You know very much that could be.
Speaker 2:I know very much that could be, I know very much and I know we approach and that's been one of our connective tissue points is that we both see business and life the same way. Um is that this can be better. We can do it better. It doesn't have to be transactional, it doesn't have to be mean and angry, and that doesn't mean it. It's not and I don't think it lacks any. You know, braveness or whatever this is like, I don't. You know we can be all those things, but really you know to to bring a whole group along is the hardest thing to do absolutely you know it's, it's.
Speaker 1:it takes superpowers of a team, yeah, to do it does which is, I feel, weird.
Speaker 2:You know, it's what we're trying to do on our side.
Speaker 1:Considering those foundational formative experiences and mentors in your upbringing. How has that translated to being a father? You've got two beautiful, beautiful children. You just keep coming up with questions. I want to stay in the energy of it because it's so important. It's so important to understand what makes you tick.
Speaker 2:There are things that I've tried my best to be. Obviously, as parents, you have a choice. You're like, okay, here are the things I grew up with, here are the things I did like, here are the things I did like. So we're going to try these, we're going to try, and then you're usually typically you're doing it with another person, right, obviously spouse or, in some cases, blended families, whatever you, who you're having an opportunity to impact, some cases, blended families, whatever you, who you're having an opportunity to impact. You know, um, you know you're these kids and and so you, you have a choice.
Speaker 2:And then we're in this very interesting time which, I think, in retrospect, you know, there's been a lot of things the last 20 years. You know, my, my oldest, is almost 24, 23, going on 24, and there's a lot that's changed in a quarter of a century. You know when he was, he was born under the shadow of September 11th. So you know the world is a different place and I think about that and how has it impacted me? I mean, I've tried, I thought, to keep the things that I thought worked really well, and then added my two cents and um, uh, and where you know, just try my, my goal with my kids has always been to expose them to as much as possible, to be as authentic as I can be as a parent, um, and as transparent with them, and try to prepare them in the best way possible for life.
Speaker 2:I don't know that I've done that necessarily. I think I've done a lot of things right. I think I've made some good mistakes. I think here's the thing they're older I'm still trying. I think that's the thing they're older I'm still trying. I think that's the thing I'm never going to not be their parent and I'm also. There's never not an opportunity to improve. I think there are. You know, I've been. I'd like to think I've been a good role model. I'd like to think I've been sometimes a role model of what not to do.
Speaker 1:Sometimes that's the best role model. I'd like to think I've been sometimes a role model of what not to do. Sometimes that's the best role model, maybe.
Speaker 2:Contrast is powerful, contrast is powerful. And also I look back and I comment that there have been a lot of times I've sacrificed myself. So when I've been involved in things, I throw myself into projects and sometimes to the detriment of the time spent with family, and I have, as I've gotten older, tried to balance that out more. It's something I failed at early. I didn't balance it out well, neither none of my wife and I did at the time. You know we, I think we, you know that's. You know we tried and I, and then we tried to write a ship. We tried to like okay, you know what's, what's really important here, what are we really doing? And we, you know, as a result, you know, with both kids, we just tried to give them as many um opportunities as possible. Uh, you know I, you know story. I mean I'm, unfortunately, my kids have had a couple medical issues that have been significant and that has introduced a whole new level of challenges that I didn't I didn't expect anticipate to be dealing with as a parent. You don't really know what to do. There's no playbook and you know you throw everything else in and it's, it's been, it's had its moments. But I think they're amazing people. I think they've come out, you know, as adults, of young adults like I'm. I'm impressed by them and, um, I'd like to think I had some smile. I think I've.
Speaker 2:I hope that I've given them enough background that we are. You know, we as parent, mom and dad have given them enough experience and their grandparents have given them enough love and experience to let them know that they're loved, they matter, and that I just want them to find joy in something they love to do in life and that they can stand on their own two feet and provide for themselves. And that's kind of a challenge right now. I mean, economically, it's not a. You ask any 20-, 20 something and they're like yeah, I've never got all the home, you know.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of, there's a lot of, uh, there's a. You know that whole generation is wondering what they're going to do and there's a lot of they're they're scared, I think you know, but they're also really resilient. So, you know, I hope I've done it, okay, I hope I've brought some of that forward and let them know where they'd come from and also let them like look, if you disagree with something, do yourself. Yeah, I, I don't, I don't have a monopoly on this, and that's that's kind of so. That's how, that's how I've handled it. So it's a work in progress.
Speaker 1:So many, so many commonalities in our journeys. You know upbringings, marriages, children. You're on a health journey. I am Right now, and to me that's the mark of a man who's committed to improvement.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Continuous expansion. Yeah, it takes one to know one, and I'm very committed to my health journey. Um, can you, can you share a little bit about that? You know the last few years? Yeah, the last most recent years. Yeah, you know what's what's working for you and your health journey?
Speaker 2:it's well journey, it's all starting to work. I got to 50, and I don't think I was in the best shape and I've been in better shape in my life. I'm looking at it, just self-cataloging it, like what am I doing to my body? So a year ago I stopped for all kinds of reasons and you know, health being a big one, going this is, this is taking a toll on me, um, even even sporadically, you know, even if or whatever it was um in in my life, I mean you, you know we, we there's plenty of opportunity to go out and golf friends, friends, and be out at nights and go to dinners and all these things, and even a few glasses of wine or whatever it takes its toll.
Speaker 2:This is where I give a shout out to my Mormon friends going, you're probably right.
Speaker 1:Not for the same reasons, but you're probably right.
Speaker 2:You got me there. It was probably better. No, but you're probably right, it's probably. You know you got me there, it was probably better. No, I don't regret it, but it, so that's that started like okay, and then I then, you know, I started feeling really good and really like okay. I'm feeling far more aware and in tune and like I'm not just having those effects. I mean I could go and have a glass of wine and feel like crap for a day and a half yeah, and you know, when you do that, if you're a non drinker and you're hearing this, yeah, you don't.
Speaker 2:You don't realize it until you do this and you're realizing, oh, yeah it if it hits you, yes, and so that was my. That was my first step in this journey. Um, you know, my, my second one, and then my second big one was about six months ago, give or take, I don't know. I'm like, well, I'm gonna try pescatarian, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get away from red meat and my, to give you some context, you know. And, but you know my son, may, my son announced he was a vegetarian at 10 years old. Oh, he's remained that. Um, despite the really difficult, like, what are we all having tonight for dinner? Okay, you want that, you want this, you want this was always a challenge.
Speaker 2:But, um, you know, he, he did it, for I don't think it was at the time, it wasn't certainly with health reasons, it was like he loved animals, still love animals, yeah, and just had that kind of sensibility and he's like I'm going to do this and he's stuck with it. He is, you know, since he's sort of now playing with things and he'll have, he'll try, you know, salmon here and there and he'll have, he'll try a piece of chicken every now and again and he's okay, but he doesn't like it. I mean, he sort of developed that. I watched him go. Huh, he's stuck with this. Here's a 10-year-old. That's incredible. He's stuck with something for now for almost 13 years. Yeah, I'm like, well, I can do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I grew up, my family had a uh butcher shop, um Murray's meats, and so I was around meat all the time, like, like I just I just thought everybody ate steak every other night, that's just what that's, and so I had plenty and and so I realized, okay, let me, let me just see what my health's going to be like. And actually it was from one of our partners, len. Yeah, len is a vegan and he was telling me when I first got to meet Len, he said something that kind of stuck with me and this is where it started. He said it makes me be more mindful of my choices and what I eat. And I'm like, huh, that's really interesting Because you have to kind of, you know, as a video. You're like having to pick and choose and go, okay, I'm going to get in my, and it really does. And so I'm like I'll try it out. As a result of that, I feel better than I felt in years, all occasion. I mean, I still eat fish. I've had chicken a few times. I've had chicken a few times. I've had steak once because of us.
Speaker 2:I wasn't going to miss this opportunity Perhaps one of the best steakhouses in the entire West. I wanted to try it. I'm not completely. It wasn't like I'm so hardcore, I was like I'll try it. But then getting back to like, no, that's fine, and I didn't. It didn't feel great. I mean, I could feel it in my gut for two days. And so, similarly, alcohol, it kind of I could sense I could feel it with me and I'm like, okay, that doesn't feel good.
Speaker 2:And now it's gym. And then you've been instrumental, because I've watched you be incredibly healthy, incredibly disciplined. To like I'm going to work out, I'm hitting the gym, I'm going six times a week. I'm like, how are you doing this with everything else? And it's just discipline. You just said I'm doing this. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, some days I don't want to work out, some days I do. But I got to, I'm committing to this idea and this thing, and I've watched you like just turn into a monster, like, like, literally like get there, I mean look fantastic and going okay. Um, this it was inspiring to see you on this journey as well, and so it was just, it was easy.
Speaker 1:And so that's where I am currently, and I Well, you're definitely fitter than you've ever been since I've known you, and you've got a more importantly than being fit, you've got a brightness in your eyes and about you. It's like an aura. That is a more inviting energy. It's a, it's a very magnetic energy that you have, and I've seen this get brighter and brighter.
Speaker 2:And so thanks for giving me a chance when it was when it's a little bit more dim and I know where we are. We wait overtime.
Speaker 1:We're just rolling today we're going Joe Rogan.
Speaker 2:We can't go three hours but so, yeah, so that that was it and and, and you know so for everybody, you know, listening, I mean it was everybody has their own journey. It was, it was just piece by piece, taking back control of my health or taking control of my health, which I really hadn't done. I did it once in my life where I was biking and running and doing all the things and you know I like that was an insane amount of activity and you know I could go out and run without even thinking about it, 15 miles and just not even you know whatever you know. And go bike, you know, go mountain bike for three and a half hours and be fine. Um, that was my other time of being really fit. But everything else in my life was not right, like my diet was off.
Speaker 2:Uh, I still, I still drank plenty, um that. And now having all this and then also committing to going, okay, I'm also going to put in my body. So I'm going to make sure, what am I missing? What do I need to, what do I need to supplement myself with, and going and what I do, and I go read and research and saying, okay, what's where's the real science on this? And, and I think I found a really you know good mix of stuff and I feel good, I just feel good, and I don't I mean I don't even say it it it. It feels amazing to just feel healthy.
Speaker 2:I don't think I felt this Like I, you know, I think it was thinking back. Like when have I felt like this, like felt like this? And it was probably my twenties. Yeah, like where I've just felt bright, where I felt alive, and the only reason for that is I've taken control of my health. Yeah, so, and we all have that opportunity and it's not like I mean it's it's life's busy and all those things and I'm not perfect. Yeah, my goal right now is just to get into the gym every other day. That was, that's it. I mean, that is. It's not nuts, it's just that's a big commitment. It's just every other day, just every other day, into the gym and and watch my, watch my diet, my diet. Um, which I'm not perfect at, I still love my licorice, sure that's one of my favorites.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're gonna cut me open. That's gonna be red dye seven yeah so anyway, so thank you for sharing all of that.
Speaker 1:I mean we we have we've hit more than I hope to cover today and I appreciate your willingness to just flow with me.
Speaker 1:Of course, thank you for the questions you know, our goal in doing this show is so that folks can understand how we think and feel. Yeah, and we just happen to focus on energy and infrastructure because that's that's on the forefront of our minds here. But but another big goal if we're successful in in this show is giving an opportunity for listeners to understand who you are, who I am, and so I appreciate you being willing to go into that and open up and and and I'd love for people to know you the way I know you. That would be a gift, Right.
Speaker 2:And vice versa, which we get to know, and that is and I think that's critical to any conversation. I mean, I, you know, I think the people who know me know where I'm coming from, and so when we ask the questions, when we talk about the things we talk about, we're real human beings with real stuff, with real shit that have come through all this. We, you know, I think we, you and I, both kind of lead with our hearts, we're committed to doing things for, I think, bigger reasons. And so when we, you know, whenever we're at we're talking to people or we're talking about these issues, all of that is coming into play. It's not just, oh, we're just, you know, we're just talking about this because all it's money. No, it's, it's we're.
Speaker 2:We're really trying to figure out how to, how to, how to do some of these things better. Why? Because I think we both see like there's a need and we've all got to be involved in this. We've all got to play our part in trying to solve some of these bigger issues and talk about this, and maybe it's us talking that inspires somebody to go and do something, or maybe they get thinking about something. That's that's how this happens. Thinking about something. That's how this happens, that's how change, and positive change, can take place, and there's going to need to be some things, and so if everybody knows, thank you, if everybody knows a little bit more about us maybe we're a little bit more human.
Speaker 1:Well, and it also seems axiomatic to me that if we're going to be successful, it requires us to have the discipline and the commitment to actually expand and all of these and be the best version of ourselves to pull these things off.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, we reach a frequency that seems to be on this, a similar frequency of others who are also thinking in those terms of expanding themselves in order to pull off that great vision that's bigger than us. Right For the, for the good of what? For the good of the community, for the good of everyone that we're impacting. So thank you for being who you are in that commitment. Thank you, wayne.
Speaker 2:Well, I will add this you know you for being who you are in that commitment. Thank you, wayne. Well, I will add this you know, you and I had a meeting this week with a group I'm not going to say who yet but what was interesting at that and the thing that came out is you know, I think you and I both said it feels like we're shooting for the stars here and it feels crazy. And I don't know if you heard this part of the conversation, but gentlemen, across the table, he says you know, we were that too. That's what they said of us 25 years ago.
Speaker 2:Wow, you know, and this company has done some amazing things and they've changed industry standards because the person leading this company saw a vision of how things could be better and everybody thought he was crazy to even try, because it was such a big fix, you were dealing with such big entities. And I think that's where you and I find ourselves a lot of like yeah, we're really, we're, we're, we're really tackling a lot. But I feel like that but it was good to hear that and going yeah, we are tackling a lot, we are, but hell, yeah, yeah, calling the lot we are, but hell, yeah, yeah, because if not us, who else? I mean, who else is gonna I mean word point. We're like, yeah, we've got someone's, someone's got to deal with this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we'll be absolutely, absolutely well, I think we ought to wrap it. Okay, this is fantastic. Hopefully y'all enjoyed this, this interview with Dave today. This was amazing, thank you, thanks, wayne.
