.jpg)
THE FRONTIER LINE
Hosts Wayne Aston and David Murray explore the critical global pillars of infrastructure development and energy production, from traditional methods to future-forward advancements. The Frontier Line covers the latest industry news, energy innovations, and sustainability trends that are shaping the future. Through expert interviews with industry leaders in renewable energy, utility-scale battery storage, and waste-to-energy technologies, the podcast provides insights into the evolving landscape of energy efficiency and sustainable infrastructure. By focusing on the intersection of innovation and the politics of energy, The Frontier Line highlights transformative ideas and technologies poised to deliver cost-efficient, resilient, and sustainable solutions for global industries.
THE FRONTIER LINE
Mandates, Efficiencies & Data Centers
Is California's approach to mandates visionary or just a means of exerting control? We challenge this notion by dissecting the state's approach to legislating compliance, from building codes to the controversial electric vehicle mandates. Our exploration raises critical questions about resistance to mandates, the prioritization of issues, and whether these decisions truly benefit the public. We also scrutinize the practicality of the electric vehicle push, suggesting hydrogen as a worthy contender. This discussion urges us to question the alignment of these mandates with scientific and economic realities.
Balancing freedom with responsibility is no easy feat, and we delve into this dynamic through the lens of Viktor Frankl's philosophy. Are California’s policies driven by altruistic goals or are they veiled control tactics? We highlight a compelling case study of a smart sprinkler system during a drought, demonstrating how technology can lead to sustainable practices without heavy-handed regulations. This segment underscores the power of incentivization over coercion, emphasizing that smart solutions and intelligent policy design can effectively tackle environmental challenges.
As renewable energy projects and data centers face changing landscapes, our conversation shifts to the future of infrastructure development. We tackle the complexities of financing, patchy transmission networks, and the climbing power demands in the age of AI. With innovative solutions like Valley Forge Impact Parks, we aspire to redefine business parks through on-site power production and efficient resource management. Our commitment to community-centric development shines through as we aspire to leave a legacy of sustainable infrastructure that benefits both the community and developers. Tune in to understand how these ambitious plans aim to forge a path toward a more sustainable future.
All right, Welcome back guys. That last episode really got my mind going.
Speaker 1:You brought a cliffhanger to the table of mandating certain things and we got into this conversation of building codes and we were talking about LED light bulbs as an example. But I wanted to dive deeper into that because it probably could. We could probably have a few hours of conversation on the mandates and the pros and cons. You know, after we ended the episode, we had this conversation that kept going and you know, dave brings up some of these legislators and we keep kicking. You know, brings up some of these legislators and we keep kicking. You know, kicking the horse in california. But you were right and I look for the listeners edification um, we're watching california. We both agree that we're watching california. Legislators mandate certain things to force the public to do certain things, and I think there are a myriad of problems with that, including being misinformed about what the correct solutions are, the timeliness of those solutions, the cost efficiency of those solutions and a whole host of other things. Let's dive into mandates, shall we, dave? Let's other things.
Speaker 2:Let's dive into mandates, shall we, dave, let's do that, let's do that. Nothing, nothing controversial whatsoever. I it always well having kids. I'm going to go back to kids here, raising kids, and I'm sure that's a good one.
Speaker 2:When you try to force something, there are a group of us out there I'm probably one of them that immediately says no, you can't tell me what to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And there's, you know, and I think on any varying scale there's, there's a reticence to like I don't want to be told, I want to make a decision, I want to make an informed decision. And so I immediately question why. And I think I, you know, in parenting I probably got more traction with and I'm sure there are a lot of people that will disagree with me but I, you know, having grown up in a culture where there's lots of rules, I saw a lot of my friends break those rules all the time, and some of it was a reaction to like, you know, almost a reaction Like you tell me not to do something, I want to do it because, because I want to do it more, and I think the so that's kind of how I'm setting up, because then I think I think mandates on down tend to come across like that to a lot of people, like, okay, maybe I would have thought it was a good idea, but now you're telling me I have to do it. Yeah, and is that really the problem?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So straws, straws, were big for a while and they ended. They'd been in a you know a debate and we can talk about the impact on wildlife and all those things, but it didn't sit well, uh, with a lot of people and even people who might, you know, but be more, I guess, a centrist like, okay, is that really the biggest problem? Is that really the thing? Is that the hill we need to be dying on right now? Is that really the big or is it a problem? Is there a bigger issue that we should be tackling? Yeah, and that's where it gets into. Why are, why are we spending time and energy maybe on smaller problems as opposed to the maybe the bigger issues?
Speaker 2:So, again, as a kicking horse of that california's been, it's sat, you know, as an electric car driver and what they're trying to push there, I don't understand how they're going to get it done. I mean, they won't, they won't. That's the short answer. Sure, they'll never get it done. They going to get it done, they won't, they won't, that's the short answer They'll never get it done.
Speaker 2:They'll never get it done and what they've done is they've just angered a lot of people in the process, as opposed to trying to actually get to a meaningful solution. And we talked about this last episode where it's as I asked you that question how do you incentivize private industry properly along perhaps working with the government to let industry, let the economy figure that out, and maybe let it figure it out in its time? Some will say well, you know, if you let the economy figure it out, well, we'll never get to some of these solutions that we really want. Well, that comes. Then comes the question you really want Is that really the yeah, who's we, who's we, who's we to really want anything and what is the best you really want? Is that really who's we? Who's we and to really want anything? And, and what is the best, is that what the science really says? Is that what is that really where? Where this stands, I'm always. Is that what your lobbyist is? Is that the line yeah, follow the money, and you can say it on both sides follow the money. Who stands to win right now in California? Who was lobbying to get this done? Well, if you follow the money, I'm sure you'd have a better answer.
Speaker 2:Is it really the best solution and I say that because I'm looking at hydrogen becoming a really viable energy source for vehicle transportation Absolutely, why wouldn't we? You know, I've seen all horror story, this horse or that. But if it gets solved and it appears that there are some groups that have really done a good job solving this, hydrogen might be a better solution than yeah, uh, than a, you know, a giant battery in a car. Yeah, um, ultimately it might end up, you know, a giant battery in a car. Yeah, ultimately it might end up, you know, solving other problems. And so that's what I'm saying. Are we really the point where we can say, yep, electric vehicles are the solution, absolutely, wholeheartedly the solution, are they?
Speaker 1:are are, are they? That's what California is attempting to do. We brought this up right. We're going to mandate no diesel trucks to enter the state of California by like 2030. Right, that's insanity. That's a great example of trying to mandate a fantasy that cannot be achieved, and I think we're going to watch. Is it going to have the popcorn? Let's get the popcorn. Let's get ready for a show and see what the solutions look like December 31st.
Speaker 2:Let's see how this rolls out. Yeah, oh, whoops we missed it.
Speaker 1:It's going to be great. Okay, I think you're right. I think I, from everything I'm reading about hydrogen and vehicles, locomotives, aircraft, you know freight trucks, even in consumer vehicles, you see BMW coming out with a hydrogen hybrid, You've got CAT, You've got Cummins. You've got all these big engine manufacturers developing hydrogen technologies. You've got companies like Toyota abandoning their EV initiatives in favor of hydrogen development and you've got to pay attention to that in favor of hydrogen development, and you got to pay attention to that. And so I think there's enough disrest from a scientific perspective that we that it's fair to say we don't know enough to mandate anything. What we, what we do have a responsibility to the public as manufacturers and providers is to provide options and-efficient solutions so the public can be making informed decisions and they can make the choice that works for them. That's right. Okay, we talk about the electric vehicles. I mean, I've heard with soft gloves some of the things that you vented to me about some of the difficulties and I have other friends who live in Laguna Beach who have shared these stories. You know, on Thanksgiving, sitting in a charging line for four hours on Thanksgiving trying to charge a damn car to go to see grandma, or whatever. I mean there's clearly these. The timing of things is not advanced far enough to be mandating anything in that regard, and so when we talked about building code and mandating certain things, that was a loaded question that I appreciated because it needs to be discussed and contextually relevant to this whole power production, power efficiency, power management, all the modalities we're discussing and we're implementing in projects and households.
Speaker 1:Something like an LED light bulb is a pretty low cost. It's a pretty, let's say, non-critical decision-making thing. You know, if we have to replace a light bulb, you can send your kid to the store. Hey, I need. You know, go get a pack of light bulbs from Home Depot. There's not a lot of, you're not? I'm personally not putting a scientific analysis on that decision. That's just something that it's such a small cost it's easy to make. Go get me some LED bulbs, Right? That's just something that it's such a small cost, it's easy to make.
Speaker 1:Go get me some LED bulbs. That's not the same conversation. We're talking about buying and owning. Go to Costco and get me 60. Yeah, go get a contractor pack of 60 light bulbs that will last 100 years. That's only 40 bucks or whatever. That's a different conversation than mandating me having to buy an electric vehicle because the state says if I want to live in the state and drive a vehicle, I got to do that. That's un-american to me, that's non-capitalist disruption. To me, that's more communist, fascist control. The so mandates come in the there's a spectrum of mandating certain, there's codifying certain things and building code for, I think, the general good, the general safety and cost efficiency and power efficiency of things. And then there's these far-reaching, fantastical things that must be money-driven. If we follow the money, it must be somebody somewhere who knows the CEO of this new company who is trying to put force this through so their buddy can make a billion dollars. I don't support that. That. That to me. Taking away the choice of the public doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the freer, the market the better Correct which we could argue about how free the market actually is. But yeah, I think we we both agree that a freer market or more open market is ultimately a healthier market.
Speaker 1:Now it's interesting Cause you just jogged my my mind here on a thought that I was just discussing with a colleague yesterday, and Victor Frankl came to mind.
Speaker 2:That's. That is actually crazy, honestly, I was actually thinking of Viktor Frankl. I was not the colleague you talked to yesterday. No, like two minutes ago. I was going to talk about man's search for meaning and him setting on the horizon. Should we shoot for the? That's what I was thinking a few minutes ago. Okay, what were you thinking about, viktor? Where does this come in?
Speaker 1:Well, what was thinking is victor frankl and his attitude and his quotes about freedom requiring responsibility. He, he has stated freedom without law, without responsibility, is just anarchy. Okay, so freedom of speech untethered by responsible observance of laws is just anarchy. Freedom of the press untethered by laws is anarchy. Freedom of the market to rape and pillage the consumer, that's anarchy. So it's it. So there's this really important thing called responsibility on the other side of freedom that that's so relevant, that victor frankl brings up and I was just discussing this on another matter yesterday about free press of course you were, and I was thinking when you said you know about, you know the goals, the lofty goals that you know politicians, you know individuals, businesses set for themselves.
Speaker 2:Saying you know, victor frankl said you know, I've said there's a pilot, I set my horizon line way up here in order to get here. Yeah Right, we've got to, we've got to continue striving and I'm, I'm a huge fan of that and I, I've, I've, I've gone back and forth with that. Okay, I look at California. Is it striving or is it?
Speaker 2:just overreach? Yeah, was it really a lofty goal that was actually doable, and is that what you're really trying to accomplish? Or was it just control manipulation? We think we're right. We're going to force this. We need to push this, and it feels more like the latter. It doesn't feel like it feels less like a lofty goal, saying you know, we should aspire to this. I'm going to encourage our businesses and our communities to engage this and hopefully get to this point. No, it was.
Speaker 1:This is what we're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I that's where I I get uncomfortable, yeah, anyway. So victor, it's funny. So victor frank, our victor frankl episode. So, and you should read the book, by the way, if you haven't read the book, absolutely, it's a phenomenal, phenomenal book. He was a phenomenal man, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny because it'd be quite a different conversation if Gavin Newsom stood up and said hey, we're so convinced that electric vehicles are the future, we're going to mandate this, but we're going to pay for half your car.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The state's going to pay you $ you 30 grand to go buy a 60 000 vehicle because we want to see this transition happen quickly. That's not. That's not what's happening. No, but that would be an interesting conversation would be an interesting conversation. We talk about incentivization versus mandating some tyrannical mandate right, that's right.
Speaker 2:Um, I was thinking in terms. I shared the story with with you. A few weeks ago, I had an opportunity to work with a company who was doing a lot of work in California, and particularly during the drought. So they had a product where it was one of the first smart sprinkling systems on the market oh yeah, sprinkler controller. And it was a very interesting experience because it's one of those things that kind of pulls back the sheets and goes oh, this is how it's really working. So, basically, they came to the market with something that was proven by the federalists. They had to send it away to the feds. The feds had to put it through testing. It broke the test. It was so efficient. Have to put it through testing. It broke the test. It was so efficient and they could legitimately say it would cut 30 to 40% of your water bill while keeping your lawn green. That's huge. So it was massive. It was a big deal.
Speaker 2:We had some conversations in California, so much so that a town, an entire town, said we love this idea, we're going to buy one of these for every one of our homes. Here's where it gets really interesting. Well, if you had these on your home. You could actually stay within the rules at the time of the drought rules, but your grass would be green. Well, at the time, most people they were getting a hard time saying, well, wait a minute, you're using too much water. Yeah, and that wasn't the case. They were just watering smarter. And you, you start talking to some of the water managers in California and what was happening on these days? So what you have all these schedules, mandated, we got to do this is that you have your water day and people just open their spigots. Yeah, because that was their day. Irresponsibly, irresponsibly, totally irresponsible. Freedom without irresponsibility. Right, because they had a day and most people don't know this yeah, okay, once the water gets down to the bottom part of those roots on your grass, that's enough. Yeah, anything over that is just waste. Yeah, well, people were wasting a lot of water on those days. They tried to solve it, but the way people were actually behaving is it was actually worsening the problem and if you use this system, they would actually keep things green while not using the amount of water. But there was a social faux pas with having a green grass Like, well, yeah, but we're not using as much water. But the town bought in and said no, no, we get it, we see the science, we think it's amazing. And they went headlong into doing that and there they got some of them online and they saw drop in water usage. They actually saw what was supposed to happen Lawns were staying green, which actually was reducing the amount of fire load, because instead of having brittle dry grass, you had lush grass and their water usage was going down.
Speaker 2:Why? It was an algorithm. It was a smart algorithm. We just need to manage this better. It wasn't a liquid. Yes, there was a water algorithm. We just need to manage this better. It wasn't a liquid. Yes, there was a water drought problem, absolutely, but it was also well. If we efficiently manage this using a little bit of technology, we can solve it, and I think that shows where but technology, the mandate, wasn't working per se. It was causing its own problems. A little bit of technology helps solve the issue.
Speaker 1:I love that example. I appreciate you sharing that. I mean I'm sitting here imagining if every municipality in this country looked at water management and they are, because water management is something everyone's complaining about, Everyone's scared to death about, we're going to run out of water and we're going to have a drought and we talk about energy and that is the other big thing, the other big elephant in the room, which is water.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, it occurs to me that if you have technology that's proven, like that, one option would be to mandate that sprinkler management system within building code and say, okay, you're going to build a new house in this city, then you have to use some smart. There's some version of it, right, yeah? Or or you present options you could put in a turf lot that doesn't require any water. I've, I mean the. The advancements in in turf are astounding. I have one, one friend, who actually, uh, manufactures and sells this turf and you can't even tell the difference between grass and turf. And just five years ago you could tell it looked like grandma's patio.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it did not look good, but now you've got this option that looks like natural grass you can't even tell. So there's a huge. Now it's really expensive. So again, to mandate someone to use that not appropriate grass you can't even tell. So there's a huge. Now it's now, it's really expensive. So to again to mandate someone to use that not appropriate but to provide it as an option incentivizing maybe they get a discount on their property tax if they're using a water efficient landscaping mechanism, right. Or the other thing would be to say, hey, we have these options available to you. If you're going to do this traditionally, then you're going to pay this extra fee it's a water impact fee and that's how you incentivize. Choice, right, proper choice to bring on widespread um, assimilation of new technology. In my mind, if I I had those three choices, I'd be all over that. That high efficiency sprinkling system yeah, Right, especially if it was affordable or especially if the city subsidized a part of it, and that was the case actually and there were federal subsidies.
Speaker 2:There was also statewide, in Utah, in fact there were. You know they would give you up to like $200 to do this. Why? Because Utah is going okay. We have this amount of water, we have this kind of growth. How do we get people to use less? What are the tools we have?
Speaker 1:Or a better question how do we make a fixed amount of water accomplish the same thing, right, with a growing population? That's right.
Speaker 2:So then they know they multiple solutions to do multiple solutions, and so at least at the time there was money. I looked recently because I'm fixing something in a home and going, okay, can I get, you know, a little bit of money back for a high efficiency toilet?
Speaker 2:yeah, same thing yeah, faucets, toilets, everything else, and those aren't as they. They're not as generous as they once were, like maybe like five or six years ago, but at the time you could basically pay for one of these devices just with a water incentive from either your local water district or even on a federal level, and really it was as simple as submitting a receipt.
Speaker 1:It's like here's my receipt and they give you a check. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the same thing for high-efficiency appliances. You buy a refrigerator that has a certain efficiency level. You can get Rocky Mountain Power to cut you a check for a part of the purchase of that new appliance.
Speaker 2:Because they would rather pay you to help offset. You just said we've got this amount of power, we know what our needs are going to be and we've got to offset or we've got to figure out. We know what our needs are going to be and we've got to offset, or we've got to figure out. And it's cheaper for us to be able to incentivize you and cut you a check or help pay for whatever than having to go build new power production, which I think we now know a little bit more about. Yeah, it's really expensive.
Speaker 2:So I totally understand, have 20, 30, 40, 50,000 people write them a $200 or $300 check versus the hundreds of millions of dollars in infrastructure it's going to cost and help us offset some of those things as this grows, to expand power production, because folks want to use inefficient appliances, for example.
Speaker 1:Right, because it feels like if we talk about applying mandates, how about we apply a mandate to a manufacturer of an appliance to say, if you're going to produce a fridge and you're going to make a certain margin, it must meet a certain baseline of efficiency in order for you to put that in Home Depot in the first place? That, to me, would be a great way at a manufacturing level. You're not mandating the public to make that choice, you're mandating a manufacturer to do it better. I'm all about that. I'm all about that. If you want to play manufacturer and you want to make all this money and all that margin, that at least meet these, these standards and we're going to get more into yeah, I know we go to weeds like, okay, so what if it was manufactured overseas?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not, doesn't mean the centers, would you then? Would you, would you slap a tariff on it? Yeah, as it comes in Right To, to give you know cause you've mandated something, say for local, for you know right up to go. Well, yeah, now you're putting me at a disadvantage because that you know that piece made over doesn't have to have that same efficiency yeah, it would only make sense if you could even that point, even playing amongst manufacturers, you know, because you don't want to hurt your local manufacturing, right?
Speaker 2:I mean, that would be the thing right, yep, absolutely, yep.
Speaker 1:Well, um, the the other big topic that I was hoping to dive into with you, dave, was financing infrastructure and energy. Small topic. We might get through it in this episode. If not, we'll just keep on rolling into the next one or the next seven episodes.
Speaker 1:Financing infrastructure and power. Um, I read an interesting article this morning up and it was talking about um three or four significant startups that had raised over 50 million dollars in the past year who were shuttering the doors and going bankrupt. These are mainly solar companies Raised a ton of money, going bankrupt. Sounds like maybe interconnection issues are hobbling them from being able to turn that over at production into revenue and actually sell the power to produce. Certainly sounds like it. These companies are financed, if I'm reading the paper correctly, by and large by private equity firms. These are the Carlyles, KKRs, Blackstones of the world and many others. There are many impact funds out there who are specifically designed to finance renewable energy, For example. I wanted to just dive into this conversation with us because we're solving some of these issues right now for ourselves, for our own projects, and it might be relevant to the listeners to to have some insight on how we're seeing it and how we're solving it. What's your knee jerk to?
Speaker 2:that. Well, this goes to what we talked about in an episode or two, a couple, three episodes ago, where the grid is not there, it's fragile, and then we were wondering actually how they're funding these things, or how are they financing these things, and why are they doing it?
Speaker 1:Yeah?
Speaker 2:Because there is. There's about I don't remember the numbers to a little bit over two terawatts. I think it was no petawatts, it was petawatts, thank you. So it was sitting there that are sitting unconnected right now, 90% of it being renewable and I don't know how much of a solar, but it's renewable that can't connect.
Speaker 2:You know, we were talking about how do you finance something that and how? How long do you bet on this thing, if? If, well, why are? Why are they financing this stuff that can't be connected and what you know? Are they running into problems? Are they not realizing that? Oh, you, you, yeah, it's not a build it and they will come. It's a build it and wait to be connected, which seems to be the going issue out there right now.
Speaker 2:And that's that talk about financing, and that might be. You're right. I mean that that would be my, my, my knee-jerk reaction to the, the hearing about that story is there's probably one of those cases where they can't make it pencil anymore. They can't get the connection, they can't get the offtake that they need. They're building these things but they're running it, running into nowhere to sell the power to, and and they could, but they might have to go to it through a utility that might not be playing nice, that might want to uptrend, all kinds of things could be coming at into play, or maybe somebody who had a power purchase agreement with them walked away again.
Speaker 2:It is a it's a challenging space when you take into consideration, uh, how we are all connected right now and how it's not. It is truly a patchwork and it's not even a good patchwork. We're, you know, in some instances, I mean, we're being held together by threads, you know, singular transmission lines over area doing that, you know, and that's fine, but there's, there are giant pockets to where there's no connection, yeah, to some of this stuff.
Speaker 1:So that that that was my, my reaction is it doesn't surprise me, yeah, it doesn't surprise me it's funny because you talk I'm almost pivoting from this kind of singular focus of financing infrastructure and energy to another episode title we've been contemplating, which is data centers. Yeah, okay, and we may as well dive into data centers while we're at this and just get in early.
Speaker 2:Because it goes a few episodes.
Speaker 1:It's all related. All the all roads lead to rome. I mean there was, uh. One of our energy advisors brought up this really interesting analogy for us a while back, maybe six months ago the three waves of data centers and power. And, as I recall, the first wave of data centers, which power. And as I recall the first wave of data centers, which is maybe 15 years ago, the way that a new data center could come online with, with, in direct relation to power, how they'd power it was. They'd just put their finger on a map and they would go and they would buy land and then they would go to the power company and say, well, we need 50 megawatts, right, and it would be done right, and that was commonplace. That's long gone, uh. And and we entered into the second wave of data centers evolving maybe five years ago or so, five, six years ago, where data center developers started saying they started getting resistance. They'd go to the power company. Power company says sorry, we don't have it we don't have it go somewhere else.
Speaker 2:It's going to take us x amount of years in order to be able to build that.
Speaker 1:Yeah yep, yep, and so so here, five, six years ago, kovat didn't help in the middle of all this.
Speaker 2:But right, yeah, I mean that was a big pain in the ass thing for everybody because it shut down everything yeah, as far as production and materials and all kinds of things, so that that didn't help matters yeah, trillion dollar, trillion dollar damage to our economy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some not political nonsense. Um, you enter the second wave five, six years ago, where data centers started to be strategic about site selection, like okay shit, okay shit, we can't. We want to be in Phoenix, but there's no power in Phoenix. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm just picking a random city. So we better go to Winslow because we can get power there. So they would start site selection driven by access to power. That is no longer the case. Well, cheap power.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which has also pushed them overseas, and still does. It's like where can we get power at the least expensive? I mean, that's been one of the motivators. It's like, okay, we can get power, but okay, maybe cost wasn't as much of a factor, but it definitely is now. If it wasn't always, it definitely is now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think. Personally, when I heard this analogy of the three waves and we started talking about the third wave, I was like man, we're still a minute away from that, maybe a couple of years, but now I almost feel like we are in the third wave. I feel like we have entered the third wave, because what we're seeing right now for data centers to be truly viable and I'm saying this supported by what Meta is doing, doing what google's doing, alphabet inc and big nvidia yeah, the hyperscale, big hyperscalers what's happening is number one power consumptions by skyrocketing with ai. Literally, that's a result in the last year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's that. That is brand new there. No one could have. I mean, I'm sure there's some people who probably factored it in the general market didn't see the amount of demand. I mean open AI opened the floodgates literally, and now we see the possibilities where the prediction of power needs the next decade is astronomical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Astronomical, astronomical, yeah, yeah, astronomical, yeah. I mean we're seeing data centers traditionally going from that 10 megawatts to 50 on the really high, biggest data centers in the world. To now we're talking about data centers that could consume 500 megawatts, a gigawatt, a gigawatt or more, yeah, or more, and we're like holy cow. So that just happened in the last year, right? So entering wave three, or or acknowledging the fact we've entered wave three, is the, the wave of data centers that are only successful by building power on site. Yes, okay, and we see meta, we see all these companies I just mentioned developing geothermal technology, developing renewable technologies, including geothermal technology, developing renewable technologies, including geothermal. Solar is not there. We're certainly investing in companies that are doing that. Yeah, there you go, investing in companies that are able to produce power on site. So you see data centers merging into the power production space. That's an interesting change.
Speaker 2:Very, we talk about well, you brought it up. You talk about, uh, you know, uh, decentralization in a weird sort of way, even though these are giant centralized companies that you know connect all of us right in in their power approach. They're not just saying, hey, let us plug in over here. They're saying, no, we've got to stand alone. Yeah, that's, it's the only way it's going to work.
Speaker 1:A dedicated feed right, a dedicated, not prioritized by all the houses around.
Speaker 2:No, because that's that's the only way this is going to work. And and and the prediction of the future and how much is going to be needed. We can't reasonably rely on. I will use this word and continue to use this word until somebody corrects me and I'm wrong brittle infrastructure, power infrastructure. They know that they could rely on it for a while third wave and say, well, we're going to either partner up, we're going to do this because in order to do this in the future, we can't, generally speaking, at least in America, north America probably be connected to this larger grid. I mean, we're going to have to be, probably, but we can't rely on it and there's just not enough. There's just not enough power. It can't come online traditionally fast enough. So how do we get around that? Yeah, we build our own. That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and it's.
Speaker 2:it's a brilliant strategy because you you bring, bring your own energy, bring your own energy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I mean new term, new term trade market, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a BYOE economy?
Speaker 1:Yes, it is, and and it's really the only viable way to move into the future, because it goes right around all of the impediments to development that we've identified permitting bureaucracy, government red tape, those delays, lead times of power conditioning equipment, which could be years.
Speaker 2:So when you say we've identified, just to be clear, it's not we've identified for the purposes of talking about. We've identified as developers, yeah, as trying to solve this problem. That's right. So it's very this is something we've been dealing with and are intimate with because we're trying to solve the problem. So it's, it's. It's very. This is something we, we we've been dealing with and are intimate with because we're trying to solve the problem. So it's it. It is very, very, very challenging.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, I'm so excited about being in the third wave, I'm so excited to find ourselves here today and and not entertaining a conversation that's theoretical, projecting five years from now because it's right now. It's the right place, it's the right time now. It's what we happen to be working on and so, um, as we've evolved in our own business identity and and what our industrial parks are yeah, high-powered industrial parks with on-site power production that can attract high-power consumers, like data centers, like bitcoin mining operations, like advanced materials manufacturing, etc. It feels really great to have kind of I wouldn't even call it foresight. I'd say we almost have stumbled into an identity that just happens to mesh perfectly with the current environment.
Speaker 2:Well, I get it, we were doing a couple of things right. Yeah, we were making the right thing and then other things and we, we, we were at the right time with with some of the other stuff that it made sense and so now you know, kind of incorporating it with what we're doing, it's, you know, it's a good plan with a little luck, yeah, yeah, and a lot of smart and listening to a lot of smart people, right right, you know I also have mentioned this a couple times, but just the it excites me to talk about the scale of things.
Speaker 1:It's much more exciting to talk about raising billions of dollars than it is to be struggling to raise a million dollars for some project that has a very limited impact. Talk about big impact for a lot of people, far-reaching, geographically non-constrained. It's an exciting proposition to be entering this data center development space as a power provider, as a power producer, and then really digging in with our legal teams on these power purchase agreements and behind the meter sale of power because we're on site, because we don't have transmission, and some of the things that apply to the traditional first and second waves of data center evolution.
Speaker 2:That's right. I'm thinking we found ourselves in that position of almost developing infrastructure as a solution. We're creating an infrastructure that we know all of the manufacturers of the future the data center and some of the big infrastructure of the future is going to need the support of a different kind of infrastructure, which will be our parks. That's where we are right now is we're developing that out, knowing it's not just enough to have a piece of land, put some curbs and gutters in and roads, and that, just enough to have a piece of land and put some, put some curbs and gutters in and those, and that it's we.
Speaker 2:We have to holistically think about what everybody is going Well, everybody with these companies are going to need, what they're going to want and how we deliver that to them, so that they who are out there looking going, well, we're going to we're kind of our own little nation here we're going to go set up a data center over here. They can go in and say, oh no, they already have all the infrastructure. They've already done all the infrastructure stuff, all the energy, everything that we need to plug into, because we know we can't do it plug-in. Well, they've solved it. They've gone around the existing challenges of the grid and done their own thing, which is kind of where we find ourselves. It's a pretty interesting spot.
Speaker 1:It's exactly what.
Speaker 2:I mean, and when we're talking to people, we're like, well, yeah, no one's really doing that. So you heard it here. So people listening, you want to go do it. Good luck, yeah, so not easy, but this is going to be a space. I mean, we don't feel like I don't think we're smarter than anybody else, it's just we are trying to do and make the best decisions we can make, decisions we can make. And we found ourselves at an interesting spot where we're developing out the next, the evolution of the business park. Yeah, for a certain kind of client, that's right, and we're not going after, you know, we know clients that we're not going after. We're going after clients that are all part of this the next 20 and 25 and 30 years in the future. So we may as well just this the next 20 and 25 and 30 years in the future.
Speaker 1:So we may as well just drop this on the listeners.
Speaker 2:If you haven't already deduced, you know we're talking about the Valley Forge Impact Parks.
Speaker 1:That's our brand.
Speaker 2:That's our business. Yeah, we were going to wait. Sorry, we were, and I can't, I can't help it.
Speaker 1:I'm sitting here just like we got to unveil this because it's so relevant to everything we're talking about. It is now go to valleyforgeimpactcom, by the way, to check out the details of some of the parks that we have in planning right now. Uh, we have active engineering going on and in fillmore and, and we're looking at, uh, something in wyoming and we're very excited about it.
Speaker 2:Other places, but we're looking at something in Wyoming and we're very excited about it.
Speaker 1:Other places but we're not going to talk about those yet, yeah, yeah, let's just say that we've got almost a dozen other sites nationally that we've already identified, that happen to be in federal opportunity zones, that happen to have really interesting state and local tax structures to stack on to. This applies to financing. Coming back around full circle.
Speaker 2:Totally applies to how some of our tactics and also how to tackle this space. It's not a simple go raise money, go build a thing. You've got to figure out how you're going to handle your cap, stack and layer it, and it's it's. It's complicated, yeah. Yeah, in order to pull this, we think, pull it off the right way, in order to bring all the right parties together in a meaningful way.
Speaker 1:This is, this is how we're approaching it, so you know, um, an attorney friend of mine asked me yesterday what is? Is the vision just a concise vision of Valley Forge Impact Parks and I shared with him what I just already stated. It's a high-power production park. It designed with the intent to attract high-energy consumers, but it also represents a platinum standard of a few things yes, extraordinary water efficiency, extraordinary power management efficiency, power efficiency. So within our parks we are mandating a few things.
Speaker 1:We are, we are using the CC&Rs within a development that we can, as a land use ordinance, as a developer, to state that if you were going to build your facility as one of our tenants on our park, it must meet a certain minimum standard of water reclamation, for example, it must meet a certain standard of carbon emissions or low or net zero emissions for whatever you're producing. And, by the way, these standards that we're setting, because there are rules, are much higher than anywhere else in the state of Utah and maybe in the nation. So it's part of our vision that we're creating an environment and we're delivering the power needs and the environment to tenants to be proud of. We're enticing them to come in with some high value propositions on pricing of power, pricing of land, etc. But also enticing a mentality that's proud to be in the park, that's proud to be considered one of these high-efficiency businesses. We want businesses that are proud to join us in leading the front of this high efficiency.
Speaker 1:And I get folks all the time, because of different city council meetings and different things, saying oh well, we heard that you're going to have this. You know level four carcinogens into the air Nonsense. We've never said that for the record, not in any city council meeting in ever. In any of our projects have I ever said we intend to build a facility that's going to release any carcinogens right into the year we want you and I have talked about this we want, I mean we want the communities a also.
Speaker 2:I mean the communities need to be proud of these things. We want to be the gem of the community, because we know that's how this all works really well together. When the community is proud and they're happy to be the gem of the community because we know that's how this all works really well together when the community is proud and they're happy to be involved and and you have, you have the residents who are working in these things that's when really good synergy starts to happen. Just good value happens. Yeah, and it's a place where we like okay, would we live there? Yeah, would we live next to it?
Speaker 2:We all have to be able to answer yes, honestly, would you put your mom and dad there? Yes, that's how I, that's how I'm looking. I know that's how you're looking. I was like yeah, that's how we're making our decisions, those are our internal values of like yeah, uvi is probably gonna cost a little extra money, probably gonna do it, yeah, but ultimately that's that's value. We think that will be created, that will come back and where we it's. It's not about that. It's about doing the right things the right way at a time when we can bring some really cutting-edge industries together in a in a meaningful way right, and then you get that synergistic effect right. So we're gonna have our, our data centers and some interesting manufacturing that are all sort of tackling some similar problems and working together versus on islands that's's right.
Speaker 1:That's right, and I think the more we gain traction, the more facilities we're able to put online, the more parks we put online, it's going to become more self-evident that this new standard has value. It's not just to be bragging about some standard. There's actual value for the community that you keep coming back to. Value for the community, not just us as the developer. So it really is an altruistic ambition, and we've talked about the universal principle dollars follow value. It's always about creating enough value for enough people. Understanding the dollars will follow that.
Speaker 1:But this is also legacy for us. This is also what do we want to leave to that community? What do we want to leave to our children in these communities? Something to be proud of, something that's engineered for the future. I don't care what the current minimum standard for air emissions is. I want to over-engineer this. So, 20 years from now, you're still excited about the fact that these businesses on our parks are so efficient and so clean. We've been doing this for a long time. It's nothing new to us. That's where my mind's at. You talk about that aiming for, aiming for the, the, the moon, and and hitting the stars mentality. That's, that's ours. That's ours. That that is exactly what the valley forge impact park is by design.
Speaker 1:That's right and we've already, and we've already hit hit time we have. That feels like it was 10 minutes for me. Yeah, didn't we just?
Speaker 2:start. So there's a teaser for where we are with a lot of things. So, as you can see, kind of how everything for us has started is so this is we're looking at this holistically, all these issues, whether it's financing, what's the latest in technology, what are we doing, how are we setting these up. All of that has to. We have to consider all of it, which is why it's so fun to talk about this, because we're trying, as we're doing this, we're sharing our experiences, hoping that it's going to. At the end of the day, we also want to help other people out. Like, look, let's we start talking about this and kind of figure this out. This is how stuff changes. It's how it gets better. We don't know. I don't know all the answers. Maybe you do, you might.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:I might act like I do, no we don't, and so it's us starting that conversation around this space to say how do we do this? This is what we're doing and this is where we're going. This is our goal and this is why. So it's fun to talk about.
Speaker 1:It absolutely is. We hope you're having fun listening to us talking about it Let us know Topics.
Speaker 2:You'd like us to cover things. You'd like us not to say whatever. Thanks for chiming in. Thank you, We'll catch you on the next episode, On the next episode. See you next time.
